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1. 1Call to Order - Roll Call▶ 0:00
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   Alley Master Plan

   discussed

   Staff and consultant David Fleeman of Florida Design Consultants presented a draft Alley Master Plan update covering the city's 16 alleyways (~5.2 miles), including inventory categories, potential improvements (repaving, multi-use trails, public art, pavers, outdoor seating, decorative lighting/landscaping, no improvement, or vacation), and recommendations. Council provided high-level feedback, discussed encroachments, dead-end alleys, accessory dwelling implications, and directed staff to come back with concept drawings/options ahead of a planned public charrette. No formal vote was taken.

   • direction:Council directed staff to bring back concept drawings of options (including 'low-hanging fruit' such as downtown overlay paved alleys and treatments for the three dead-end alleys) for use in an upcoming public charrette. (none)
   • consensus:Council indicated it does not wish to vacate any alleys and that each of the 16 alleys should be evaluated individually rather than as a group. (none)

   📍Delaware📍Goldford Alley📍Grand Boulevard📍Jefferson to Madison segment (Alley #1)📍Porpoise Alley📍Sable Palm Alley📍Sailfish Alley🏢Florida Design Consultants🏢North Bay Hospital🏢Verizon👤Bertel👤Councilman Murphy👤David Fleeman👤Mr. Rivera👤Mr. Starkey👤Ms. Vance#2019 Alleyway Management Plan draft#2021 Alley Management Plan#2022 Alley Reclamation Program#Accessory dwelling units (pending Florida statutes)#Alley Master Plan#CRA funding source#Design charrette#Downtown overlay district#Environmental Committee recommendations (Nov 20, 2019)#Multi-use trail#Right-of-way vacation

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   [00:00:17] Discussion about the alleyways, please. [00:00:21] Yes, Mr. Rivera has been working on this project with Florida Design Consultants for some time [00:00:29] now, and I've asked him to introduce the agenda item. [00:00:32] Thank you, Ms. Vance. I just want to give you an update on how we got here. [00:00:38] Did you guys hear that? Yeah, I don't know what's going on there. [00:00:42] Filt it up. Filt it up, he said. [00:00:45] Green light on. [00:00:47] Do you want this one? [00:00:50] Can you hear me? Okay. All right. [00:00:55] Thank you. [00:00:57] So in 2019, the alleyway management plan draft was presented to city council, [00:01:04] and it was there that we ended up getting comments from the board. [00:01:10] And the main comment that was derived from that draft presentation was you wanted to see comments that were from the environmental committee, [00:01:20] and then you had requested that we bring it back to you so that you could review it some more. [00:01:25] That night we did have some additional comments from Mr. Starkey, and just to follow up with that, [00:01:32] he had some recommendations on the vacation process, the paving methodology. [00:01:38] Some of his other comments were the cost should be shared and not using general fund dollars [00:01:44] if we had any improvements to the alleyways, but to utilize a CRA funding source. [00:01:50] And then he did have a last comment about the suburban-style land development code. [00:01:56] It was his opinion of how our land development code is now, [00:02:00] and he said that it squanders the potential created by the alleys. [00:02:05] In other words, there are so many options that are available to you that could make improvements [00:02:11] and increase the property values, the quality of life of the residents that are butting up against these alleyways [00:02:19] that he thought that if we had updated it to include some of the options that you may have, [00:02:26] that that would help greatly. [00:02:29] So November 20th of 2019, the Environmental Committee came back with their comments [00:02:36] on the pavement management plan or the alley management plan, [00:02:40] and their main comments were they had recommended to City Council [00:02:45] that you do not vacate any of the alleys as they exist. [00:02:49] They also recommended that you deny paving any of the alleys, [00:02:53] and they had said that if that recommendation was rejected, [00:02:59] then they would recommend that if there were any type of improvements to the alleyways such as that, [00:03:05] that it would be done with pervious materials. [00:03:09] And then finally, they had also recommended that any of the alleyways that were encroached by adjacent property owners [00:03:17] that the council directs staff to restore them back to the city in 2021 the alley management plan [00:03:25] was presented to council and this included your inventory of your alleys the citizens petition [00:03:33] process and the vacation alley process so basically similar to a technical manual if you [00:03:42] call the 2022 alley reclamation program which was part of the environmental committee's recommendation [00:03:52] and council had directed staff staff began to do survey work we needed to start doing survey [00:04:00] work because a lot of these alleys were overgrown if we were going to do any type of work there [00:04:04] whether we were going to reclaim an alley or whether we were going to do any improvements [00:04:09] we needed to know what our right-of-ways were so we started that process in 2022 we completed it in [00:04:15] 2024 and then we started in 2020 the vegetation clearing uh utilizing a contractor and doing a [00:04:26] annual program with that with a certain amount of money that council had approved annually for us [00:04:33] So that brings us to today, now that we feel like the technical manual of everything is pretty much done. [00:04:41] And one of the things that I will say about that is we figured that even if you decided that you did not want to vacate any of your alleys [00:04:51] or you did not want to pave them or you did want to pave them, [00:04:55] We wanted to put some type of methodology in the technical manual to where we would have a program that you could follow should you choose to do any of those types of activities. [00:05:06] So tonight we're here to present the Alley Master Plan draft, and this is a draft that we want council's high-level overview and comments to give us options. [00:05:20] In other words, we've identified alleys, we've taken and given a couple options of the different types of improvements [00:05:27] that you may wish to follow, and then we can take and incorporate those to where when we do have our charrette that's scheduled, [00:05:37] we will have input from City Council to be able to go ahead and present to the residents [00:05:45] and any of the stakeholders that are going to be affected by any types of improvements [00:05:50] that you are wanting to perform, that we can get their input as well [00:05:57] before we would come back and give you a final draft to vote on as far as the master plan goes. [00:06:03] And so with that, we have David Fleeman in attendance tonight. [00:06:08] He's with Florida Design Consultants, [00:06:10] And he's here to present a PowerPoint presentation to you that does give you the overview of the draft. [00:06:17] And then after David's finished, we'll go ahead and take any types of comments, [00:06:22] any recommendations that you may have to where we can start putting all of that data together to schedule a charrette. [00:06:29] So, David. [00:06:29] Thank you for the opportunity to present this to you this evening. [00:06:40] So while that's loading up, as Robert indicated, this is an update of the alley master plan. [00:06:49] So just as a little refresher, the city has 16 different alleyways that make up, [00:07:10] approximately 5.2 miles of corridor the alleys have a variety of uses that [00:07:18] include primary access to residential driveways and garages access to [00:07:22] businesses restaurants and parking lots secondary accesses as well as some that [00:07:28] are home to city utilities so the goal of the master plan update was to [00:07:34] evaluate the current condition assess the current usage and identify potential [00:07:39] opportunities for the highest best use so in the inventory we broke it down [00:07:46] into four basic categories of unimproved and so in those alleys there's no [00:07:52] pavement no base limited use oftentimes heavily vegetated second category was [00:07:59] intermixed base and vegetation where you have a partial base stabilization [00:08:04] There's no asphalt, but there's wheel tracks. [00:08:07] You can see where it's been used periodically. [00:08:10] The third category was what we termed conglomerated asphalt. [00:08:15] So it was a patchwork of asphalt surface. [00:08:18] It looks like somebody went out and patched potholes for the entire length of the alley. [00:08:24] And then the fourth was a very consistent asphalt driving surface. [00:08:31] So you can see the photos on the right. [00:08:33] There's an example of an intermixed base with vegetation on the top photo. [00:08:39] And then sunshine there has a pretty uniform asphalt surface. [00:08:45] So as far as what was evaluated, in addition to that, we looked at what the overall condition was, [00:08:55] whether it had driveways that it was servicing, vehicle accessibility, access to businesses, dumpsters, and city utilities. [00:09:06] So there's a very detailed matrix in the report that categorizes all these items. [00:09:21] that has been converted into this graphic for simplicity. [00:09:26] So you can see the legend over on the right. [00:09:30] You've got asphalt, conglomerated asphalt, intermixed base, and unimproved are the four colors. [00:09:37] You can see the colors scattered throughout the city at the various alleyways. [00:09:44] In the PDF of the report, there's a hyperlink in the report that takes you to an interactive 3D video. [00:09:53] It's kind of like Google Street View. [00:09:56] So we drove all of the alleyways, and if you want to review it from the comfort of your desk, [00:10:07] you can click the hyperlink and look at specific alleyways. [00:10:11] Can I have a copy on that for a second? [00:10:13] Certainly. [00:10:14] I've looked at every one of those drawings and there are two that do not connect from one side to the other that I can tell. [00:10:24] And that is, it looks like Sable Palm Alley and then Sailfish Alley. [00:10:30] And the one on Delaware we're all pretty familiar with because we had big issues with that one. [00:10:36] I don't know whether it would go through in a recommendation, I think, as to how far it went. [00:10:43] But I think, if I'm not mistaken, the one of Sable Pond is behind the north side of Delaware, [00:10:54] and the one on Sailfish was on the road, must be Illinois, I think. [00:11:01] Yeah, it's between Delaware and Illinois. [00:11:04] Yeah, between Illinois and the other, and both of those were vacated at some point. [00:11:11] So I think those are kind of the only two, if someone tells me if I'm wrong, [00:11:17] but every alley you have has a connection between two north-south roads except those two. [00:11:22] Yeah, I tried that in, ah, there we are. [00:11:29] Okay. [00:11:31] So I see Goldford Alley up at the top, which is there by the city's PD, I think. [00:11:36] Yes. [00:11:38] But that one and on the left side of Washington. [00:11:43] Right, there's another segment over there. [00:11:45] It's not continuous. [00:11:46] I think those three, when we talk about them, I'll bring them back, [00:11:49] but I just wanted to point them out. [00:11:50] Okay, thank you. [00:11:53] So some of the challenges and opportunities that we have [00:11:59] is that many residents would just like to have the alleys paved or resurfaced [00:12:04] to improve access and appearance. [00:12:06] But paving is not always possible for a variety of reasons, [00:12:11] whether that's stormwater regulations, narrow widths in trees, utilities, [00:12:17] and other physical constraints. [00:12:18] So each alleyway needs to be individually evaluated [00:12:22] to determine really the best use for potential improvements. [00:12:29] Now, I want to talk about what the potential improvements that we identified were, so starting [00:12:40] with the obvious repaving, so that would be just a simple milling and resurfacing of existing [00:12:45] paved alleyways. [00:12:49] Ones like the conglomerated one in the first picture, even though the roadway is in very [00:12:54] poor shape. I think it's fairly well established that it's impervious and we could pave it from a [00:13:01] maintenance perspective and be exempt from water management district permitting. The second [00:13:08] potential use would be creating a multi-use trail in some of the alleyways. The third was [00:13:17] a public art and using paintings or murals to brighten alleyways and and create neighborhood [00:13:25] identity alternative pavers can add color character and and create pervious uh paving [00:13:34] opportunities if you've got shade and so forth then outdoor seating may be a [00:13:43] attractive option in some areas in some urban areas near uh restaurants and other other uses [00:13:50] that are have as nighttime application maybe decorative lighting would be appropriate [00:13:56] decorative landscaping adds texture breaks up pavement creates inviting pedestrian space and [00:14:04] then the last two are no improvement keep the alleys just the way they are or the alley and [00:14:12] number nine would be a right-of-way vacation when an alley is overgrown unused or provides [00:14:17] little opportunity for public benefit um vacation may be appropriate [00:14:23] so in the full report you'll you'll see there's a multi-page matrix this this excerpt shows uh [00:14:34] alley number one and you can see in the jefferson the madison streets segment uh it's currently [00:14:41] unimproved. Because of that, that means paving isn't really an opportunity that would be [00:14:50] reasonable. It could potentially have a multi-use trail put in there, like physically, whether that [00:14:57] makes sense or not. It needs to still be evaluated with the multi-use or trail connectivity, [00:15:04] and it would be eligible or suitable to be vacated. [00:15:10] Because it's unimproved, it really doesn't lend itself for outdoor seating or pavers or decorative landscaping, [00:15:17] that in conjunction with where it's located. [00:15:19] So just to provide a little bit of a summary, the highest-ranked recommendation was repaving, [00:15:31] So the current paved alleyways could be repaved. [00:15:35] No improvement was the second highest category. [00:15:40] And kind of jumping into just as an example of an area where we indicated that some segments could be eligible for public art or alternative pavers or outdoor seating. [00:15:56] You can see the alleys really run largely down Grand Boulevard and tie in to what the future focus of Grand Boulevard is. [00:16:10] So even, let's say, like Porpoise Alley, I don't think that giving this treatment to the entire length of Porpoise would be appropriate. [00:16:21] it would really be concentrating it near Grand Boulevard and tying it into the Grand Boulevard streetscape. [00:16:28] So even where things are eligible for the alley segments, [00:16:33] it may not be appropriate to apply it wholeheartedly to the entire length of the alley. [00:16:39] So each one is a very specific kind of case-by-case application. [00:16:44] Questions? [00:16:50] thoughts about where are we in the strategy of this meeting go ahead [00:16:58] question I was just gonna say you know you have those different options or [00:17:05] different alternatives I don't know if it'd be cost effective or financially [00:17:09] effective but you know have other ways where those options could be and then [00:17:14] actually implement them and then you have some allies you can showcase and [00:17:17] say okay so this looks like this is like people can kind of decide to what what [00:17:22] they like like model home would be yeah exactly yeah comment about alleys and [00:17:33] the pending Florida statutes for accessory dwellings we had that [00:17:41] discussion before we understand that we had didn't have a real positive response [00:17:45] from our Land Development Review Board on accessory dwellings, but it appears [00:17:49] from the sounds of it that they're coming, and it has been generally [00:17:53] favored by the council. We just didn't get a favorable response [00:17:57] from the group. Seemingly, [00:18:01] where R1 and the certain [00:18:05] parts of town maybe weren't hopeful to see [00:18:09] a whole bunch of other small apartments going up, [00:18:13] economically sound like this whole affordable housing pitch has created a [00:18:20] you know accessory dwellings anywhere if that's the case our alleys are the [00:18:25] perfect place to have a little one unit apartment or something that you can see [00:18:29] on the back in fact some of them already have them we've also got a lot of and I [00:18:34] don't know how well identified they are to us but a lot of our air B&B's [00:18:39] throughout the downtown and so a lot of places have rules for the accessory [00:18:47] drawings like it has to be for affordable housing or it has to be for a [00:18:54] certain full-time residential use our hands have been tied a lot by [00:19:00] legislature and what we could do with an Airbnb and someone made the pitch that [00:19:05] affordability for a new family might require them to they could buy a home [00:19:09] and if they have a little accessory dwelling they could help to supplement [00:19:12] to make the income to allow them to afford the house. Also to bring their senior members of their family. [00:19:19] Yeah, or fill the adult granny flat or the child going to college that you don't want [00:19:25] to have them playing his music and slamming his door inside the house or [00:19:30] whatever or coming in late which is always torture for a grandparent but in [00:19:38] that discussion the alternative use of it it's going to get results from [00:19:44] somebody on that street that is thinking about that if you turned it into a bike [00:19:50] path I'm curious to see you probably need to get buy-in from the folks and [00:19:58] you could have street parking on the front but I think having a variety of [00:20:04] uses this is a good idea dead-end one with one that can go through and it's [00:20:12] paved now and they're using it anyhow you did make one comment that if it was [00:20:18] unpaved that it didn't make sense to pave it so I'm not so sure that some of [00:20:22] those on paved streets the first box you had was repaving so if it's unpaved you [00:20:28] can't repave it correct it could be paved I mean if in turns you could [00:20:32] decide alleys are good we only have so many of them they could be down the list [00:20:36] but ultimately it especially if this law passes they could become very popular [00:20:41] for somebody to be able to say hey if I had that alley working in the back how [00:20:46] did we deal with encroachment [00:20:50] you had some that were encroached on our alleyways their own homes have already [00:20:55] encroached or the storage shed or whatever got to move we haven't dealt with all of the [00:21:01] encroachments but generally they've been removed from the public right-of-way i didn't come up and [00:21:08] that's why i asked because i knew we had a problem um well i think we have to address that because [00:21:12] it's our property number one you know and you brought up the dead end situation that's still [00:21:18] once we once we decide to give it up to somebody then the others have every right to take it too [00:21:23] So even if it's a dead end, even if it's blocked in on both ends, I think it's still our property. [00:21:29] And, you know, we're opening up a can of worms if we give it to one and not the other. [00:21:35] Well, you have to, by law, give it a half on both sides. [00:21:38] So you can't give somebody and what's happening on these. [00:21:41] Not that's not what I'm saying, if it's blocked on the end. [00:21:43] Yeah. [00:21:44] Some of them said, well, we still get our trash picked up by the city trash collector. [00:21:50] or there's and many of them have a like a verizon or a telephone utility or electric utility or [00:21:56] something going through them so if you did vacate an alley you'd have to preserve the easement i'm [00:22:01] sure on the property for it just opens up a can of worms i don't even want to touch [00:22:06] well you might not want to touch it but if there's only three streets and they're not going anywhere [00:22:10] at some point still you're opening up you know you're opening up but i agree with you that it [00:22:16] shouldn't be the topic of our conversation those are one-offs that are [00:22:19] maybe subject to everyone's opinion I think they need to be not dressed all 16 [00:22:26] together but individually you know what they have and what what's best for that [00:22:30] particular area also where it's located might be a factor on whether it can be a [00:22:36] historic thing or it can be I'd almost like to just pull those three dead ones [00:22:44] that are dead end off of the chart and not talk about putting any money into [00:22:48] them because we are improving property that's not being used by anybody [00:22:53] apparently well that we could do that but I don't want to give them up well [00:22:57] that's you know we're all sitting here today we won't all be sitting here [00:23:01] tomorrow so that's why I say if you don't want to give them up let's just [00:23:04] take them off the chart altogether for talking about it but we can't make a [00:23:08] decision that's going to affect somebody five years from now either so yeah I [00:23:12] they sell those properties. I got to go look at those three to make that decision, but I don't want to give them up. If we take them off the list, that's fine, but if we don't want to. Yeah, I wouldn't be pushing you to give them up. Like I said, the 16 can't be in a group there individually. I know my alleyway is where the trash is picked up all the way down the alleyway. You've got Madison and you've got the other side of Madison and you've got the area that is in need of redevelopment. [00:23:42] Bertel, you might pipe in, but I think this is a public improvement that enhances the [00:23:47] value of properties, not just giving it to the one on the street, but says, "Hey, we're [00:23:52] doing something here, particularly if these new laws come into effect." [00:23:56] It opens up an opportunity for people that they might not have had. [00:24:02] When we have that design charrette or whatever you've got in mind, I think that's when you [00:24:06] want to put those different options out there and find out what kind of responses we get. [00:24:11] Is there any regulations on easements off them, like how closely? [00:24:17] Some of these fences, it seems like they're right up to the alleyway. [00:24:21] Is there an easement that those fences have been encroached on? [00:24:24] Or is the alleyway just 10 feet wide? [00:24:27] We've got a right-of-way, and it's 20 foot. [00:24:29] So some of them are encroached with their fences then? [00:24:33] Could be. [00:24:35] Is that one going from Grand to, what is it, Adams, something just south of Sullivan's? [00:24:45] You get down to the end of it, you've got to sneak your car out because of the traffic and the fences to get on that. [00:24:51] I'm not certain of that one. [00:24:52] I do have a question for you. [00:24:54] Would you like us to come up with some low-hanging fruit? [00:24:58] In other words, I know that Councilman Murphy has recommended that we come back with a concept drawing of maybe some of our options. [00:25:07] And so some of the things we could do is if you all agreed that, say, in the downtown overlay district, most of those alleys were paved, [00:25:17] were there a mixture and they need to be redone, a lot of the lawyers' offices, accountants, [00:25:25] those types of businesses have moved into the residential homes that's low-hanging fruit to [00:25:31] where we could come back and maybe some of the homes that are already on there would be suitable [00:25:37] for auxiliary the secondary housing thing that you're talking about we have those three alleys [00:25:43] that the mayor's talking about that that don't have any ingress egress points but the one that [00:25:48] i know that's right behind north bay hospital has a lift station that's our access to it so [00:25:54] technically you could have a concept that David has presented to you where [00:25:58] you have furniture or you have that meeting place that we've all talked [00:26:03] about that neighbors can get together and those types of things maybe we take [00:26:08] that option because that's three alleys you've made your decision that you don't [00:26:12] want to vacate any of them so now what are we going to do with them we have an [00:26:16] option to do nothing with them leave them the way they are or is there a way [00:26:19] can we improve them and that's what i think i'm hearing is maybe if we bring you some more options [00:26:27] to where when we have our charrette then everybody would be able to look at those and kind of get a [00:26:32] clearer picture of what they would like to see um x amount of years ago you can't hear you in the [00:26:37] light an x amount of years ago that um we um addressed all the streets in town and we chose [00:26:42] the ones that needed to be you know updated first or paved to rest or fixed first and then we put it [00:26:48] put every one of them on a 20 year program, of course if something happens on one, we adjust it on the 20 year program. [00:26:54] And I think that's kind of what we need to do with the alleyways. [00:26:57] Like you call it low hanging fruit, but I think we need to take a look at the ones that'll be easy to go ahead and fix up. [00:27:03] And that'll actually make some of the ones down the street that look and say, hey, look what they did there, look what they did there. [00:27:09] And so, that's a great idea. [00:27:11] I think it's a long term budget, capital plan, documentation. [00:27:17] I've argued that you didn't have a whole lot in it in the past years and so as we [00:27:21] look at next year we just start saying we're gonna put so much a year into like [00:27:25] we do with our stormwater ponds and so don't forget the stormwater and the and [00:27:30] the comments that you made earlier from the Environmental Committee you know [00:27:36] those designs it would be nice and some of those designs incorporated some kind [00:27:40] swale or Florida native landscaping or something that would absorb that absorb [00:27:49] that but every alley isn't the same some might be in a crossing a basin and some [00:27:54] might be on high ground where it doesn't really matter so much stormwater runoff [00:28:01] being the issue but I don't think that's a defining argument I think it's [00:28:06] practical is what we're looking for what's the practical thing so I'm I'd go [00:28:11] back to Matt I think you're right if you could find even something close to the [00:28:16] downtown it might be that Jimmy's restaurant goes behind the AA Club yeah [00:28:20] and it goes all the way back and that seems to be potentially a little [00:28:27] lighting a little something it's right in that place where we have a lot of you [00:28:31] know homeless and we don't want people hiding in the alleys and so it's great [00:28:35] pathway right to downtown yeah a golf cart whatever you could come in [00:28:39] especially since they're gonna start selling alcohol they're pretty soon to [00:28:43] get the AA right next to the AA building but it's a good test thing is it means [00:28:47] you sell an alcohol now they are they're going to yeah they already are well but [00:28:52] I mean they're gonna open they say they're opening up a thing and the [00:28:55] little consignment shop is their plan oh [00:28:59] which would use that outdoor seating that they have to you know make some [00:29:04] sense but anyway yeah so I like the long term plan I think the idea is great but [00:29:12] I want to kind of work on something a little more immediate because obviously [00:29:17] some of these I know you said that some of these we've worked on clearing [00:29:21] vegetation but I know there's some that are still not great you know for [00:29:26] passability so my question is do we have anything in place to do something a [00:29:32] little bit more immediate not for say a 10-year plan but something a little more [00:29:36] immediate to get these so they're passable usable because I really think [00:29:42] if these alleys were a little bit better maintained I think people would use [00:29:48] those more you know whether it be biking walking your dog your golf cart you know [00:29:54] all these things and I'm you know I'm speaking specifically to a couple that [00:29:57] I've seen where there were trees that grew right in the middle of the alleyway [00:30:01] you know so it was making it so you couldn't even get a vehicle through [00:30:04] there so obviously that was not maintained at all you know and obviously [00:30:09] you know homeowners like myself you know if I've got overgrowth I take care of it [00:30:15] not everybody does that so I'm just curious do we have any plan of something [00:30:21] current because obviously to do paving and other things that's gonna take some [00:30:25] budget you know all those things we do you have been approving a line item for [00:30:32] us to take care of that okay so if there are any out there well just let us know [00:30:37] our guys will go out and I know Steve is doing a pretty good job of driving those [00:30:42] alleys and getting with the contractor but there could be a tree that's [00:30:46] extended over there also could be some of the things that we've run into is [00:30:50] over the years the people that utilize those alleys end up going around a tree [00:30:55] or something and so you think that the alley is is 20 feet on the other side of that tree when [00:31:02] actually it's it's it's on the other one and and so those are some of the issues that we do have [00:31:07] but i agree with you and we can take care of of that maintenance immediately is there a schedule [00:31:13] of like specific alleys or is it him just driving around he's been driving okay up and down and has [00:31:20] list of what he did the year prior but if like the mayor said if there's one [00:31:25] that jumps out that needs needs it more than than another one then we can always [00:31:29] I mean I think that's what I was to it too is listen let's start making a list [00:31:34] and saying hey we've got to go back to you know alleyway be correct a month [00:31:38] because especially in summer when it grows right you know you know but we [00:31:43] need to have some kind of sense of order priority in that you know even down the [00:31:48] road of handling them you say you know a couple years couple a year you know in [00:31:53] ten years we'd have them all done right mr. mayor to that guy that looks [00:31:57] identical to you who's the chairman of the CRA I would say the repair work the [00:32:02] maintenance work that you're talking about would be Public Works work yeah [00:32:05] and that the CRA the funder of some of the design and the economic improvements [00:32:13] those alleys and so I would look to the city because it's a City Council work [00:32:18] session to figure a way in which you can address those immediate needs if you can [00:32:24] through whoever you're using but to specifically go back to Matt's [00:32:29] conversation what can we do now in today's this year's budget to get it [00:32:34] started and what can we do to our CRA plan that I would be belly aching that [00:32:41] We haven't approved it yet, but every time we come up with a new idea, it's like, oh, it's good that we haven't finished the plan yet. [00:32:46] But I think it's getting close to time to finish that plan. [00:32:49] And I think the alleys could be called out in the plan, specifically as part of the enhancement of the historic downtown being what's really attracting it. [00:33:01] I think we're on the same page here. [00:33:02] Yes. [00:33:03] Just organizing and dealing with all 16 in some sense of order and priorities and what they need. [00:33:11] Well, four of us are. [00:33:12] We didn't hear from Vertell yet. [00:33:14] Yeah, I'll just jump in and start by saying to comment on the three alleys that you would like to visit. [00:33:22] I appreciate David for having a interactive map, so if we don't want to have to drive out there, we can just pull it up. [00:33:28] So I appreciate that. [00:33:30] To the low hanging fruit idea, that way we can kind of get the ball rolling like Mr. [00:33:36] was saying the one thing I'd be looking for is not you know the same three [00:33:42] projects like three placemaking projects or three maintenance based projects for [00:33:51] lift station access I would hope that there would be you know one that points [00:33:55] to placemaking one that points to lift station access and one that points to [00:33:59] you know maybe if we just keep you know we're not gonna vacation it but keep it [00:34:03] where it doesn't have access that way we have something to go back to the other [00:34:09] alleys to say you have you have your options the other point on the you know [00:34:15] the ADU alley versus the lift station alley is I or the I'm just using lift [00:34:22] station as a term but the access for utilities only alley or an alleyway that [00:34:27] perhaps has no access it's overgrown and we want to keep it overgrown is I would [00:34:33] caution and i'm sure it'll come up and i keep wanting to say charcuterie meetings but you're [00:34:37] using a different word what are you calling them right charrette um i would have some charcuterie [00:34:46] boards at those meetings uh i i would caution that you know we we might think uh and it it was [00:34:54] the only part of the i'm not going to nitpick but it said you know alternatives for best use was the [00:34:58] bullet uh up on the on the screen and and there might be very well a case that the best use is [00:35:04] what is now there not an alternative for best use and i that's that's my caution is uh and i won't [00:35:10] i won't spend too much time on this because i don't want the one person who has had problem [00:35:14] with their alley to hijack this conversation it is a larger larger big picture conversation but i [00:35:19] want to bring her up just to say uh i feel like there is a tool to use uh you know leaving a an [00:35:27] alley or two off the plan or putting them on the plan and identifying them as alleys we don't want [00:35:32] to touch right now to achieve the purpose of some of our community which is they don't want people [00:35:39] on their alleys they want to keep their or they don't want people on the the city alleys because [00:35:44] they like how it is currently and that may very well be the best use and so as a good government [00:35:50] representing the people that do live here whether it's five years or now making sure that we're [00:35:56] empowering that alleyway to to be left alone and not uh turned into an access way so i think we'd [00:36:04] be surprised that there might be some alleys that uh are overgrown that their residents want adus [00:36:09] they want us to they want it cut up and they want to be able to turn it into an accessible way and [00:36:14] then we're going to have alleys that right now are paved that they're the majority of residents might [00:36:18] think that you know i i i have people who are driving back there who are who are not doing [00:36:25] you know you're doing things they aren't supposed to and that might be a lighting conversation or [00:36:30] uh there's one resident who often says their valley is paved and because of the way their [00:36:34] long lawn is configured the drivers are not stopping at the stop sign they're cutting [00:36:39] through his lawn and so it might mean putting up some sort of diet diet based material to [00:36:44] to block off his lawn with that alley so there's going to be a lot of unique cases that come up [00:36:49] when you start identifying these low hanging fruit that i think this this is one of those [00:36:54] unique projects where we're going right where people live to their back doors in some cases [00:37:00] to their front doors so now you know the emphasis on getting the community's involvement is going to [00:37:07] be key here and we and we say it with every project you know we want to hear from the community but [00:37:11] we cannot assume we know what's best it was a lot of diversity and variety up there [00:37:15] uh and i'm glad for that because every alley is different uh and i like that grand is kind of a [00:37:21] node you kind of you're working with staff you you were very conscious of the [00:37:27] future for grand you could see the intention in there so I appreciate that [00:37:31] but there there there may be a street or two that our community we think we know [00:37:37] what we want for that and it's it's it's not the right purpose and I'm gonna be [00:37:41] listening consciously for that when I'm eating my charcuterie I'll bring my own [00:37:44] if you guys can't make it happen but I really do think this is a project that's [00:37:49] going to touch the back of people's homes so we have to be conscious of the [00:37:52] community input so if you all are in agreement I think one of the things that [00:37:58] David was saying up there as well is we would recommend that you look [00:38:04] specifically what you're talking about I think that we need to look at the alley [00:38:08] not as from point A to point B we recommend that you look at it block to [00:38:15] block because the alleys can change in their characteristics and if you have 10 people that [00:38:22] live on that block i think those 10 people talking about those elements that you said that we might [00:38:27] run into those 10 people on that block are going to know what those elements are we're going to be [00:38:32] able to address those and i think that would be a little bit easier to work with than to have a [00:38:38] hundred people in a meeting and trying to get their opinions because somebody that lives on the south [00:38:45] into town might not be experiencing the same thing as somebody that lives on the north you've got [00:38:49] something you've got 45 percent rentals people that they own their owns and maybe their neighbors [00:38:56] own them all they want a different approach than the people that rent people red don't care [00:39:00] the landlord cares i'll tell you what if you get those you know maybe we can also identify some [00:39:06] suggestions for low-hanging fruit i'd love to invite our council as a whole to go out there [00:39:11] and i don't know sunshine law permitting maybe judy will have to walk with us but [00:39:15] go out there and knock a couple blocks and uh whatever low-hanging fruit we decide and talk [00:39:19] to some of the residents you know opposed to always you know we can still invite them here [00:39:23] and do do the normal thing but if anyone's open to it i'll go knock some doors with some uh some [00:39:28] of you to once we've identified the blocks we uh sure let's do it we want pending sunshine law and [00:39:34] whatever the case may be it's allowable we'd have to have the press along we could ride in the [00:39:40] The DART, and we could announce it, and we could have somebody with us, [00:39:44] and we could go look and have staff or someone address and show us the different types. [00:39:48] Probably attract some attention. [00:39:50] One thing that I went through that we haven't had to go through since we did the paving management program [00:39:58] were paving assessment hearings, and did it both at the county level where there was a rule that said [00:40:05] if you can get half the people or two-thirds of the people to agree, then we'll pave it, [00:40:10] and assess them and they were having to pay it. [00:40:12] So assessment and the money part of it is the big -- was the big thing then. [00:40:17] But even with some caution, always we look for opinions. [00:40:24] We want people to tell us what they think. [00:40:27] But ultimately when it comes down to it, we got to decide, in my mind, [00:40:31] I have to decide what I think is the best thing for it in the long run. [00:40:34] So I hope we don't go to a, and maybe by selecting which one we do next, [00:40:41] if we find a community or a street that really wants it, and we say that's the first one that wants it. [00:40:46] Because when we started paving, then everyone wanted the paving. [00:40:50] Beforehand, it was the money that stopped them, [00:40:53] but they would figure out whatever excuse they could to not want it to be paved. [00:40:58] So, I think we just have to be cautious that we incorporate the community's advice. [00:41:06] We find the, to your low hanging fruit, we find the low hanging alleys that we have a [00:41:12] pretty good consensus on. [00:41:15] Those will help direct the ones that are borderline too. [00:41:18] Right. [00:41:19] When they see them and how they function, they might change their mind rather than having [00:41:22] to imagine. [00:41:23] That's why I say we prioritize the one, two, 16. [00:41:27] Doing it smart will work. [00:41:28] I would only say the lighting, could we try to incorporate something like dark sky lighting [00:41:32] in those backyards because when the Main Street landing was built before they changed this [00:41:39] name, there were lights in the parking lot that were bright, that were shining across [00:41:45] the river into other people's eyes. [00:41:47] So if we want to answer first before we end up having to find the complaints because lighting [00:41:54] is probably good for safety yes let's keep it to where it's not intrusive to [00:42:00] when we start to the back windows operate on the backyard give the [00:42:04] residents remotes they can just put a tree they already thought of that I'm [00:42:09] just bringing it up you have you have your guidance I was gonna say do we say [00:42:20] this is a 10 year looking at 10 year on this your master plans are typically 10 [00:42:25] years but it may well that in the master plan and the overview we know it's going [00:42:31] to take longer but this is what we're doing and what we're prioritizing in [00:42:36] those 10 years and then obviously in the following 10 years we'd come up and we'd [00:42:41] present to you what we've accomplished at it from that master plan a year how [00:42:47] Now, I'm thinking sooner than 10 years is what I'm thinking. [00:42:51] I was going to say, you know, two a year, that'd be, you know. [00:42:53] Our goal would be to implement, though, in a quicker fashion. [00:42:57] We recognize the sense of urgency on your part. [00:42:59] And then maybe the alleyways that are going to be paved, [00:43:02] we can tag on to maybe some of the street paving we've got going on already [00:43:06] and, you know, for cost-wise or something to get them to do it cheaper. [00:43:10] So, quick question. [00:43:12] So, do we want to leave it up to Robert slash Colin [00:43:15] to come up with three potential alleyways for us to use as examples or [00:43:20] do we want to come up with those three I think they're the professionals they're [00:43:25] like the option out there some feedback on the idea of the on that on that topic [00:43:32] yeah I personally don't want to see three place making alleys come back I [00:43:37] would prefer to see a place making a little bit of random yeah we're gonna [00:43:41] give you okay yeah should be random three different models not yeah yeah but [00:43:47] it was more than three options okay five different options going down one so [00:43:56] what's the timing of when this comes back to us because there's nothing wrong [00:43:59] with you all having some that you want to point out to us and what and taking [00:44:03] us on the ride and getting feedback from us if you want to say here's an option [00:44:10] and there's an option however you would do it I'm not opposed to being part of [00:44:14] the process [00:44:18] you'll be identifying some ideas you already had one in mind so you've got [00:44:27] one knocked off already [00:44:30] so yeah yeah I wouldn't think it would take that long to be able to make the [00:44:37] turnaround with some concepts what was it how many weeks there's 16 and 3 of [00:44:46] them are we're putting on hold so down to 13 Roberts next meeting [00:45:03] DAVID BURRAGE: We can do the turnaround. [00:45:05] DAVID BURRAGE: And you'll find out [00:45:06] what it's like when you're not on the staff anymore. [00:45:08] DAVID BURRAGE: Mm-hmm. [00:45:10] DAVID BURRAGE: He said to roll his eyes. [00:45:14] Anything else, Debbie?

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3. 3Adjournment▶ 45:15