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   Discussion Regarding the Recreation & Aquatic Center Property and Proposed Senior Housing Project

   discussed

   Council held a work session to discuss the future of the Recreation & Aquatic Center property and a proposed $30 million senior housing/center project (80 units) championed by Congressman Gus Bilirakis in partnership with the Area Agency on Aging and Pasco County. Staff presented two site options: the originally proposed 1.64-acre city parcel at 6315 Indiana plus an adjacent 1-acre parcel, versus an alternative using the Claude Pepper Senior Center site on Van Buren. Council also discussed the defaulted lease of CARES at the Claude Pepper Center and gave direction to pursue the project, possibly via long-term lease rather than sale, with planning department involvement.

   • direction:Council directed staff to explore the alternative Claude Pepper site and consider a long-term lease (e.g., 100-year) rather than sale of city property for the senior housing project, and to involve planning department and county partners. (none)

   📍6315 Indiana📍Adjacent 1-acre undeveloped parcel on Indiana Avenue📍Claude Pepper Senior Center on Van Buren📍Francis Park📍Sims Park🏢Aldi🏢Area Agency on Aging🏢Community Aging and Retirement Services Incorporated (CARES)🏢Pasco County🏢Southwest Florida Water Management District (Swiftmud)🏢Winn-Dixie👤Debbie👤Gus Bilirakis👤Joppa👤Robert Rivera#CDBG funds#Claude Pepper Senior Center#DART program#MPO Pinellas-Pasco funding#Pasco County $585 million funding#Recreation & Aquatic Center

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   [00:00:23] Um, will you hand me the sheet that you're going to talk about? [00:00:39] Yes. [00:00:42] Thank you for your attendance here this evening. [00:00:45] The purpose of the work session is to discuss some of the proposed uses of [00:00:54] our Recreation and Aquatic Center property as well as to open up general [00:01:00] discussion about the center as, um, in general, and we're prompted to have [00:01:08] the discussion in part, um, based on some recent activity and I outlined for [00:01:20] you in my communication in the packet, some of the ongoings related to the [00:01:32] community aging and retirement services incorporated the CARES group and how [00:01:42] over time, since we entered into a contractual relationship with them in [00:01:49] October of 2008, their scope of services to residents of Pasco County has, um, [00:02:02] been reduced and how, and additionally that, um, they've experienced some [00:02:11] management and some financial difficulties over, um, the last couple of [00:02:17] years, which have resulted, um, in them now being the subject of some bankruptcy [00:02:24] proceedings. [00:02:25] Um, they currently occupy our Claude Pepper, um, Senior Center, which is [00:02:37] located on Van Buren, which is, um, the street that fronts our Recreation [00:02:46] and Aquatic Center, um, complex, and they are in a lease agreement with the [00:02:54] city for a period of time that spans, um, a, a number of years, um, yet, um, they [00:03:08] do not pay a lease agreement, I mean, a lease payment, pardon me, um, to the [00:03:13] city for use of the building, but there's enough of a change in the [00:03:21] services, um, or their purposes, uh, by which they're to provide services, um, [00:03:30] that there's a basis that they've defaulted on the terms of, of the lease [00:03:36] agreement, and so we may at some point, um, want to consider taking some form of [00:03:43] action as it relates to their tenancy of the building, and I wanted to bring [00:03:49] that matter to your attention, as it's my duty to do so. [00:03:54] Um, secondly, there's an opportunity that's been presented to us, um, to [00:04:00] serve as a partner in a, in a project that involves the Area Agency on Aging [00:04:07] and also involves Pasco County. [00:04:10] Um, that project involves the establishment of a senior center, which [00:04:18] would service all of Pasco County, and additionally involves the establishment [00:04:24] of 80 units of housing, which would, um, be used to house senior citizens, and [00:04:36] it's a $30 million project, and it's being championed and supported by [00:04:42] Congressman Gus Bilirakis, who, very much to his credit, has amassed a large [00:04:49] amount of funding to support the project. [00:04:53] At the current time, they're interested in property that fronts Indiana Avenue. [00:05:00] They're interested in a 1.64 acre parcel of property that is located at 6315 [00:05:09] Indiana, and it's depicted on the first, um, drawing that was just distributed [00:05:19] to you, and that is owned by the city. [00:05:22] In order, in their estimation, to have a parcel large enough to accommodate [00:05:30] the project, they're additionally interested in the one acre parcel located [00:05:38] adjacent to the 1.6 acre parcel, and that, um, parcel is one acre in size, [00:05:47] and that parcel is undeveloped. [00:05:51] The city's parcel is in use. [00:05:56] Um, it accommodates a detention basin, an access road into the rear portion of [00:06:03] our complex, and it also is used for service purposes, um, to support some [00:06:13] parks, maintenance-related responsibilities, as well as some dark [00:06:22] functions and housing of the darts themselves, the units, and Robert can [00:06:29] speak more specifically, um, to that, but if you determine that you would like to [00:06:38] sell that property, then we'll, of course, effectuate a plan to relocate those [00:06:44] functions to another, um, piece of property. [00:06:48] I have a quick question at this point. [00:06:50] Um, that area that you're talking about, um, that was a dump when I came to town. [00:06:58] I don't know that. [00:06:59] I think it was created. [00:07:01] Yeah, it is, because it's aerated and things like that, I believe. [00:07:04] Isn't it aerated? [00:07:05] Well, that's farther down. [00:07:06] I think it's for drainage. [00:07:08] Correct. [00:07:09] That's further down Indiana. [00:07:11] It's on the other side of Congress Street. [00:07:13] Yeah. [00:07:13] The old Indiana vegetative landfill. [00:07:16] Yeah, the Indiana landfill would be between Congress and Rhone, right? [00:07:19] About halfway on the north side there. [00:07:23] Rhone? [00:07:24] Yeah, between Congress and Rhone along Indiana. [00:07:26] It'll be on the north side about halfway through. [00:07:28] Half block down. [00:07:31] I thought it was some of the, I thought it was some of this green area here. [00:07:35] Okay. [00:07:38] This property is actually used, in use, as a drainage area to support the needs [00:07:46] of the neighborhood and some of the complexes, I understand it from Robert. [00:07:51] Um, and, and this has been the property that has been under discussion for [00:07:57] several months, as you're aware, um, with the Area Agency on Aging related [00:08:04] to their interest in the project. [00:08:07] Um, I, I brought forward to you a second drawing today, which has not been [00:08:15] discussed with the Area Agency on Aging, just for discussion amongst ourselves. [00:08:24] And the idea, um, came from Robert Rivera and it shows basically the [00:08:36] Claude Pepper Center in red, or the property of the Claude Pepper Center [00:08:42] in Van Buren, um, street and on the aerial. [00:08:49] And Robert, why don't you explain what's being depicted on the map to the council? [00:08:56] Sure. [00:08:57] Thank you. [00:08:57] If you can look at both of them simultaneously. [00:09:01] So as Debbie had mentioned, the, the first aerial shows the proposed, [00:09:06] um, areas that they want to construct. [00:09:09] When we started looking at that, we also started thinking, okay, well, they're [00:09:14] going to be enlarging an impervious surface area, so they're going to [00:09:17] have to expand the retention pond. [00:09:18] The, the pond as it is now is permitted. [00:09:22] So it's not to say that you can't relocate it, that you can't expand [00:09:27] it, but it's got to go somewhere. [00:09:29] Um, and so the thought process is if you kept it like this, the way I understand [00:09:35] it, I don't think that they can get their structure that they're proposing [00:09:38] to build, um, on that site and not do something with that pond. [00:09:44] And in the lady's, the, the director's email, she mentions that pond specifically [00:09:50] talking about having to do something with it. [00:09:53] It doesn't mean that they couldn't take and do an underground structure. [00:09:57] Like you see a lot of grocery stores do with the parking lots, [00:10:00] but that's real expensive. [00:10:01] So that probably would kill the project. [00:10:04] So the next viable option would be to relocate the pond. [00:10:08] And so when we look at what they're proposing now, basically the, the, the [00:10:13] thing that would, you, you would do is you probably would move it over to [00:10:16] the, to the north and you're going to have to fit it somewhere in between [00:10:21] the, um, skateboard, um, area that they've got and the basketball area. [00:10:27] And that's going to be butting up against the property with the seniors. [00:10:32] Excuse me. [00:10:33] Who uses that retention pond that's north of the rec center? [00:10:37] Is that all, all the properties? [00:10:39] It's at your, at the area neighborhood and the base and the topography and [00:10:43] all that water coming down Indiana. [00:10:44] But it's all the ones that aren't on the map. [00:10:47] The ones to the north, this right here. [00:10:49] The ones to the north are over on the other side. [00:10:52] That's what I'm saying. [00:10:52] Is it all these properties that use that retention pond, not just? [00:10:56] All of the properties that are over to the north and to the [00:10:59] east use that retention pond. [00:11:01] Okay. [00:11:01] That's what I'm asking. [00:11:02] Yes. [00:11:03] Yes. [00:11:03] I mean, it's real large. [00:11:04] That was a ball fielded. [00:11:05] Correct. [00:11:05] And we've expanded that a couple of times. [00:11:07] Now, um, could you extend pipes all the way over there? [00:11:13] That's, I mean, you can do anything that you want, but we're trying to [00:11:17] look at it at a common sense approach. [00:11:20] So if you were going to keep the proposal the way it is, then we've [00:11:25] got to, the next step would be to figure out where that retention pond [00:11:29] would go, um, and the cost of it. [00:11:33] Um, so our thought process was, well, what do we still have available that [00:11:38] maybe could, could be an option that you could look at and just, you know, [00:11:42] maybe put it up there for a discussion, like Debbie had said. [00:11:46] And so if we look at that existing property that you've got, the [00:11:49] Claude Pepper, that's a 2.5 acre site. [00:11:53] And what they're looking at is a 2.4, I think, or 2.6, 2.6. [00:11:59] So it would be a whole lot easier for them to be able to utilize three [00:12:03] quarters of that property and then run a, a connecting point over to the [00:12:11] existing pond that we have at that site and expand it like it's depicted [00:12:15] here to where they could utilize their, their runoff on this pond site [00:12:21] by, by the expansion portion of it. [00:12:25] We would still be able to keep the, uh, maintenance yard that has [00:12:29] the structure that houses the two darts, it charges them. [00:12:33] We also have equipment that we, the guys take and, um, the golf carts [00:12:38] and those other types of vehicles, maintenance vehicles that they use [00:12:41] in Sims Park, they'll leave them there and they'll run up and there's [00:12:45] a dumpster and they can work off of that site, especially during, uh, special events. [00:12:51] If they took this piece of property also, wouldn't they, wouldn't we lose [00:12:55] that back entrance to the, to the rec center too? [00:12:58] Well, they didn't, they didn't, the only thing that they talked about was [00:13:01] they, they would expect someone to be able to construct that ingress [00:13:05] egress point and maintain it. [00:13:08] So the email sounded to me like they knew that, that, that the access [00:13:13] point had to remain, but could it be moved or adjusted? [00:13:18] Yeah, but, but we would definitely still need to have an ingress egress [00:13:23] point in the back of, of the rec center. [00:13:26] And, and Robert's proposed one on the drawing. [00:13:30] And so we, we put one and we straightened that, that road out and [00:13:34] put it in between the, the two properties. [00:13:38] So it was just something that, that we figured may be viable to [00:13:41] where you all could definitely discuss. [00:13:46] Oh, oh, oh, I know you can get in the backside. [00:13:50] Yeah, this is the way it looks now. [00:13:52] Oh, oh, okay. [00:13:53] And this is what it'll look like. [00:13:55] Okay, good. [00:13:56] Turn one this way and the other one flat. [00:13:58] So that way you're going to see the same picture. [00:14:01] Okay. [00:14:01] All right. [00:14:02] I, I didn't, I thought it was straight in. [00:14:03] I'm sorry. [00:14:04] Yeah. [00:14:04] And we understand that, that the elevations here on this, the, that [00:14:08] this property have to be dealt with, but looking at it at a, at a [00:14:14] high level, it just, it looks like it could work depending on what [00:14:18] kind of site plan they would propose. [00:14:20] There were, or there is two swift mud well points that are still [00:14:25] there that, that we used to sample. [00:14:27] I don't know if they're still active, but that's not something that I don't [00:14:31] think we couldn't overcome and, and work with, with swift mud to [00:14:34] either relocate or close them out. [00:14:37] It's in your red box. [00:14:38] Yes, sir. [00:14:41] Well, I don't know how, Mr. [00:14:42] Mayor, you want to have that discussion around us, but [00:14:44] thank you for the presentation. [00:14:46] I'm ready to jump in at whatever point. [00:14:49] Somebody else has something first. [00:14:54] So the, the impetus of this, and I think I shared. [00:15:00] with you about a year ago was, you know, my thinking I could handle more jobs than I can [00:15:07] and getting on the advisory board of the Area Agency on Aging, which, by the way, they had [00:15:12] invited any of us to join. And in that capacity, having been in the 90s, the mayor at the time [00:15:23] when we used, I think it was CDBG funds, I don't know, Robert, who was here at the time [00:15:28] if you were, but when we built the Claude Pepper Senior Center, it was for a purpose [00:15:34] of providing some senior care. And I know there's been discussion about whether CARES [00:15:40] is active or using it, but when the agency started talking about this grant they had [00:15:47] and what they had envisioned, and when I was asking them about daycare for seniors, not [00:15:58] just for 80 units for people to live in, but their plan, as I understand it, is to [00:16:03] have a large community senior center, not just to support the people that live there, [00:16:08] but something in the way of an addition to the services our rec center adds, because [00:16:15] we have seniors that go in there and do things as well, and we have the pickleball courts [00:16:19] and we have the pools and we have the less traffic during school time, and the provisions [00:16:26] for them getting it required them to be close to groceries, close to a hospital. So all [00:16:33] of that discussion just led me, I think you can thank me later, for suggesting that this [00:16:39] might be a good place for it. But it was also because they had confirmed that Pasco County [00:16:45] was underserved, as we are on the MPO, we have been historically, I'm not so sure that's [00:16:53] the case anymore, but the Pinellas-Pasco, Pinellas got all the M funds back in the day, [00:16:58] we were owed millions, and then they stopped doing M funds, and so we never got our share, [00:17:05] and I've always been, having been born in St. Petersburg, and always been, I don't know [00:17:12] if the word is envious or anxious, that we didn't always get the best facilities in Pasco [00:17:20] County. So to have Gus Bilirakis offer to help and to have what they describe as a premier [00:17:30] facility that would allow this sort of cradle-to-grave lifestyle in our city, and give some opportunity [00:17:39] for folks, especially having been displaced by the hurricanes and everything else, a chance [00:17:44] to have some people live on site, but my real excitement was that that large community center [00:17:51] could do more than the seven people that were getting daycare at a maximum in the Old Cloud [00:17:58] Pepper Center, when there were 130 people on a waiting list, and having been a caregiver [00:18:05] and knowing what sleep deprivation is and understanding folks with Alzheimer's, it's [00:18:09] like there's a serious need for that kind of service. And the county has a whole, they [00:18:19] have a whole section of people that are involved in that, and I think they've gotten involved [00:18:22] in this. So my reaction to your drawing is, one I want to share with and hear from planning, [00:18:30] the fact that I've been told that one of the biggest concerns they have is the potential [00:18:39] delay or difficulty in us getting the zoning on two acres of land to be able to put that [00:18:45] many units. And so I talked with some urban planners that are not in the city, but my [00:18:53] counter-argument to all of this transaction, the way it's been troubling, is to say, why [00:18:59] don't we look at the density that's assigned to our rec center, because we're not going [00:19:05] to build any more housing on it, and why don't we do a lease, maybe a hundred-year lease [00:19:11] of that property, which would potentially allow us to not have to rezone. You've got [00:19:16] to check with the lawyers and everybody else, but what we can't have is a fly in the ointment [00:19:22] at the last minute that causes everybody to huff and puff and move it to another city [00:19:27] because we haven't got a solution. So if that's two acres, and we were already dedicating [00:19:33] it for seniors, originally it was for firefighters, there was a big tank there, right, and they [00:19:38] did fire rescue stuff in it. Then the tank went, and that went, and it's very high, and [00:19:47] I'm really pushing for the county to become partners for some of that $580 million that [00:19:53] they are out there looking to figure out what projects they can do in our city. I think [00:20:00] that if we could come away tonight at this 6 o'clock meeting, which is on the agenda [00:20:05] about what we're going to do, I think we need to give them a strong signal that says, we're [00:20:10] going to make this work, and we have a new idea that might be a better proximity for [00:20:17] the facility, or let their planners take a look, like I said before, which is why I'm [00:20:25] glad we had this, to say let their planners co-plan it with us in a way that they can [00:20:32] maybe make some more enhancements to the overall master plan. Now, to your point, Mr. Mayor, [00:20:38] if we have to, if we're going to rebuild that, it should be on the rec center site because [00:20:44] of injuries. I'm not sure how many injuries they have, and everybody's got a cell phone, [00:20:50] but it's a valid argument. [00:20:51] Injuries? What are you talking about? [00:20:53] The skateboard park. You wanted it to be there so there would be someone to watch it, or... [00:20:57] Oh, yeah, I didn't want to move it to Francis Park, that's true. [00:21:01] But I think it's a potential option still, but I get your point. But I think that the [00:21:09] drainage issue you've raised is one that hasn't been considered by anybody. It's a good issue. [00:21:16] The city built that pond to accommodate the community when we built the rec center, so [00:21:22] we weren't like a developer that only had to do what we needed for our property. We're [00:21:26] always looking for ways to buy land and do more storm water to protect our residents. [00:21:31] So when we built something on our own property, then we're subject to our own rules. So I [00:21:37] get what you're saying. It doesn't look like much of a retention pond from here, but I [00:21:43] guess it does dip down there and fill up with water. [00:21:45] It's pretty deep. [00:21:46] It is. You can't see it from above so well. [00:21:49] If I may real quick, gentlemen, please, is I think that one of the things that I wanted [00:21:54] to mention that I think is real important, too, is if this site could work out, it puts [00:22:00] the senior community closer to the entrance of the rec center, it puts it closer to the [00:22:06] pickleball court and the tennis courts, and it gives you a buffer between the basketball [00:22:13] and the skate board or whatever you call it, the skate park, versus if they proceeded with [00:22:20] the original concept, there's no separation. And so you always have the younger demographics [00:22:26] interacting with the senior population. [00:22:29] I want to say something, too, here. I want an open discussion. [00:22:34] Yeah, yeah. Good, that's fine. Back and forth, yeah. [00:22:37] Okay, because you got into 1990 in this thing. But I think there's also, you know, we're [00:22:43] talking about .1 acres difference, and I think there's a parking lot right behind there, [00:22:49] too, which could maybe be modified or expanded or something where they could actually, you [00:22:55] know, use that parking lot, you know, for their place, too, in this particular new idea [00:23:01] where Claude Pepper is. And it's also more accessible, I think, you know, using Van Buren [00:23:07] than it is, you know, using Indiana sometimes, especially to get, you know, up to Aldi now, [00:23:14] Winn-Dixie, Aldi, whatever. But I think that's, you know, a great idea. And also, I don't [00:23:20] think you'll, I think it'll actually be a buffer for the people on the west side of [00:23:24] Van Buren because that's residential, and so you've got seniors. [00:23:28] And the only other thing that, you know, I want to add or ask about, too, the county's [00:23:32] like, oh, yeah, we'll let you guys do that, you know, we'll support you in that. But you're [00:23:37] going to, let's say there's 80 units, you're going to have 80, maybe even 100 people living [00:23:41] there, at least 80, if you've got 80. Well, we're going to have a lot more calls to our, [00:23:48] emergency calls to our fire department, which almost puts a, you know, putting a vehicle [00:23:53] there, you know, multiple times a week. So I think somehow, if we pick this up, and supposedly [00:24:00] it's for the county, then the county needs to support us somehow, you know, financially, [00:24:08] you know, whatever it is that will help back us up in our fire department to, you know, [00:24:13] because of the calls that we're going to get with 80, at minimum 80 people, maybe more [00:24:18] if there's couples. So either way, but I didn't like the other location because first of all, [00:24:25] they haven't come to us with any drawings, they don't even have an architect. You know, [00:24:29] so, you know, we sell a piece of property with no idea what's going on there except [00:24:33] there's going to have 80 units in a rec center, a senior rec center. So those are the things [00:24:38] where I'm questioning, you know, you just sell a piece of property and without any restrictions [00:24:43] or any ideas or any drawings or anything, I have a problem there. [00:24:49] So I like everything you said until you got to the point of getting into the myopic 80 [00:24:54] units because we're now not the largest city in the county, we've got a brand new fire [00:24:58] station and that's going to be perceived as picking and trying to find ways to get money [00:25:05] out of them. They have $585 million they want to give to us and frankly, they've been unhappy. [00:25:15] And so the answer is, instead of us and them, it should be us. It should be us together [00:25:21] working with them. [00:25:22] I agree with that. I didn't say against it, so I'm just saying. [00:25:24] So to the question I have on the zoning, we go from a 2.6 acre lot to a 2.5 acre red [00:25:32] mark, but that red mark, to your point, Joppa, includes the road and the parking and our [00:25:38] own extra parking on the side as well if there's a daytime event. There's all that parking [00:25:43] over there that is used by the rec center. [00:25:46] I don't know, maybe he needs to say it. The proposed development site is the red part. [00:25:51] That doesn't include the roads or the parking. [00:25:53] My point is, we shouldn't be selling them the land. It's our land. We should give them [00:25:58] a 100 year lease, let them build their building, and our part of that is going to be to show [00:26:05] that we have all the parking and maybe we get them to make those improvements, to your [00:26:10] point. What are you going to do? [00:26:12] But if we get the planning department involved, we're all looking for the most efficient way [00:26:17] to do this. [00:26:19] I don't know if the county stepped up to talk to them, except, I mean, I heard Gus Bilirakis. [00:26:24] I heard Gus Bilirakis talk to a senior group. [00:26:27] I'll ask Debbie, but the county has had four or five different departments on this project. [00:26:31] It's a very dear to their heart, and it's an opportunity for... [00:26:36] Yeah, they are very committed to it and willing to participate financially and administratively. [00:26:44] These things haven't been brought up, so that's why I asked. [00:26:46] It's hard to not be able to talk to each other, isn't it? [00:26:49] Well, you're going to the meetings with them, aren't you? [00:26:52] I'm not on it anymore, but that's what I'm saying. It's hard to communicate. That's why [00:26:55] we have this. But to my question, related to zoning, that has to be resolved. And along [00:27:07] the course of this, they finally came to us and offered to switch to, like, swap some [00:27:11] land and let us have that building we wanted downtown. [00:27:14] Right. They have made a commitment. I talked to the county administrator last week about... [00:27:20] Missouri property? [00:27:21] Yeah. [00:27:22] I'm sorry, the Red Cross building on Missouri? [00:27:24] Yeah, Missouri property. [00:27:25] Yes. [00:27:26] So if we could sit down and just put all our things on the table, I still believe that [00:27:35] a 100-year lease is done all the time. People will build a building with a 100-year lease [00:27:39] on it for senior housing just as easily as they'll take title to it. And somehow it's [00:27:47] going to be up to the CRA to move that money to the general fund that was intended to be [00:27:52] moved over. So when you all kind of authorized me to spend some time working with finance [00:27:58] and the manager, you'll remember that one of the Aqua Harbor methods was to have the [00:28:06] CRA pay the city millions of dollars for the transfer of density rights. So by reducing [00:28:15] that and not having that happen, the general fund still needs the money back. [00:28:19] Yeah, well, we're talking about... [00:28:21] Well, it's... [00:28:22] You're talking about CPA-type things. You know, let's stay this focused. That you can [00:28:26] work out. But once we have... We've got to get the county sitting at this table with [00:28:30] us. [00:28:31] Well, I think they're ready to go, except they have this question about zoning and whether [00:28:37] or not we're late with our comprehensive plan or we're in default or we can't rezone. But [00:28:43] even if we could rezone, my point is, if you were building a building with all those units, [00:28:49] you would need parking. And we don't want to force them to put all the parking on that [00:28:54] lot when we could have a community public parking like we have in our downtown that [00:28:59] can accommodate that in a way that these lower-income seniors could be riding around [00:29:05] in golf carts and not even have a car anymore. [00:29:07] They can get the dart right out back. [00:29:08] Yeah. [00:29:09] Downtown. [00:29:10] Yeah. [00:29:11] I'm just kidding. [00:29:12] And we have transportation and it's all... [00:29:13] Well, those are the types of things that she's going to work out with the county, not us. [00:29:16] Well, that's what I'm saying. Let's just say we're committed to working with the county [00:29:19] to make this project work tonight, other than having to argue over processes that may take [00:29:26] time. [00:29:27] Right. [00:29:29] Well, I guess the biggest issue is, do we agree on that proposed site? [00:29:34] I think it's a good site. [00:29:35] I mean, I think it makes a good idea. [00:29:37] Yeah, because I really, I thought housing, where they originally planned it, there was [00:29:44] just, they're seniors. They're going to start complaining, guaranteed, within a year about [00:29:49] the noise at the pool and the noise at the skateboard park. [00:29:53] So as long as we agree on that spot... [00:29:54] Especially all summer when we've got a three-month program at the rec center. [00:29:58] My big... [00:30:00] My big question is, all these improvements elsewhere, [00:30:04] I want to make sure we're not eating that. [00:30:07] So if we're going to lease in this spot, [00:30:10] we need to expand this retention and do this road, [00:30:14] I feel that should be part of their obligation to pay for it. [00:30:20] And if some- [00:30:21] That's where the county can step up. [00:30:24] Yeah, I mean, as long as we get our zoning that we need, [00:30:29] I think that makes total sense. [00:30:31] And then the only other real issue I see [00:30:33] is parking for the rec center can get a little tedious [00:30:37] sometimes, so I want to make sure that we don't take away [00:30:40] from too much rec center parking [00:30:43] and make sure these people are using this outlet parking, [00:30:46] you know, on the south end. [00:30:51] The pond that's there now and the proposed, [00:30:56] that's something that we've had in the works regardless, right? [00:31:00] To expand the retention pond. [00:31:03] Will we expand it? [00:31:04] No, that's not something that would be our responsibility. [00:31:07] Go ahead, Robert. [00:31:08] I'm sorry. [00:31:08] That's all right. [00:31:09] Dale, don't leave. [00:31:11] Yeah, that's- [00:31:11] Do you have a drainage problem now on Indiana at all? [00:31:15] Like, would you ever proceed putting a pond there? [00:31:20] Yeah, I'd have to look more into it [00:31:21] to give you a definite answer, [00:31:23] but right now we don't have a problem with the topography. [00:31:26] It's catching what it can and the rest of it goes further down. [00:31:32] But I think- [00:31:33] Yeah, but also that this part here is holding its own water, [00:31:39] but if you start building something on it, [00:31:40] you've got to send the water somewhere. [00:31:41] Chopper. [00:31:42] It's like this, man. [00:31:43] No, but this is grass. [00:31:45] This is grass. [00:31:46] Oh, that one, yeah. [00:31:48] I'm talking the red one. [00:31:49] No, no, no. [00:31:51] It's shedding already onto everything. [00:31:53] I don't know why you would need some water. [00:31:54] No, you're changing. [00:31:55] I'm here, and that's not flowing anywhere. [00:31:58] It's retaining its own water. [00:32:00] I'm talking about the south of the rec center on Indiana [00:32:03] where we have the proposed pond expansion, [00:32:07] and that's us doing that? [00:32:09] No, that would be the- [00:32:10] They wouldn't do it otherwise. [00:32:13] They'd scrap it. [00:32:14] Correct. [00:32:15] You'd leave everything there the way it is. [00:32:17] We would leave everything there, [00:32:19] and if they needed to have drainage for the 2.5-acre site [00:32:25] because there's an existing retention pond [00:32:27] there on the south corner up by Van Buren. [00:32:31] Okay. [00:32:32] There's a small retention pond there, [00:32:34] and that takes the impervious surface [00:32:36] of the Claude Pepper Center. [00:32:37] Oh, I see, moving over here. [00:32:38] If they were going to take to utilize all of this land, [00:32:42] then their option would be to go ahead and fill that pond in, [00:32:46] get your retention over at this one by expansion, [00:32:50] and run your storm pipe from one site to the next site, [00:32:54] and in their email, [00:32:57] they did propose taking responsibility for that, [00:33:01] and then I would also just add, too, [00:33:03] is if you talked about leasing or something like that, [00:33:06] in her breakdown, [00:33:07] she's talking about almost $450,000 in site acquisitions [00:33:12] and stuff like that. [00:33:13] I don't know if that money could be freed up- [00:33:15] It could. [00:33:16] ...to do your improvements [00:33:18] when it comes to the drainage and the road relocation [00:33:21] if they're saying that they didn't calculate those costs. [00:33:24] They've just freed up some money. [00:33:27] Right, so that's- [00:33:29] I'm just- [00:33:30] Also, I mean, if we're going to accept their parking, [00:33:34] with our existing parking lots, [00:33:35] any modification we need to do to those parking lots [00:33:38] would be part of their responsibility. [00:33:39] They have money for development costs. [00:33:42] Yeah, that's what I'm saying out loud. [00:33:45] Especially if they're leasing, [00:33:47] they had that freed up money to do that, [00:33:49] and it just makes more sense to put it over there, [00:33:51] in the red area for the actual project, [00:33:57] versus going south there. [00:34:00] And let me just say, if they were to buy it, [00:34:03] if they wanted to buy it, [00:34:05] then it's probably not for nothing. [00:34:07] It's bigger than the one we were going to sell them of our own. [00:34:11] Right. [00:34:11] And we own more land, [00:34:13] and I'm just cautious to try to get too much skin out of the game [00:34:17] when we're already doing a free clinic [00:34:19] and we're already providing senior center to say, [00:34:22] oh no, if you're going to do it, [00:34:25] it's property that's already been sort of identified for that purpose. [00:34:29] Yeah, and then in the talks with them, [00:34:31] it was going to be on site of the project, [00:34:33] like on the bottom floor. [00:34:36] So, I mean, it makes perfect sense. [00:34:37] So, long story short, yeah, [00:34:38] it makes more sense to put it over there in the red, [00:34:42] and then we can do all the other things, [00:34:45] and it just makes more sense. [00:34:50] We like it, Robert, sound like. [00:34:52] Good, sounds like a good idea. [00:34:54] I just want everything on the table, [00:34:56] and I want the, you know, not only the aging people, [00:34:58] but I want the county to be sitting at the table too. [00:35:03] So, they're aware of where we're at. [00:35:04] They'll need to, and we'll work with their planning staff, [00:35:07] because I will, at a minimum, [00:35:10] want to look at whether or not, [00:35:13] before we make any skateboard improvements, [00:35:15] we would want to move that park, [00:35:21] so we could expand parking for the senior center there, [00:35:29] and whether it needs to be relocated, [00:35:31] maybe to the other side of the basketball court, [00:35:37] or onto this undeveloped piece of property [00:35:40] that they were going to buy, or maybe still should buy. [00:35:46] It's also a lot of impervious surface [00:35:49] that, if it weren't there, [00:35:51] could help us with the overall drainage plan as well. [00:35:54] So, it might pay for us to, [00:35:57] and I know you're not crazy about moving it, [00:35:59] but, you know, for us to talk about it between Francis, [00:36:03] I'm telling you, there's stuff going on at that park [00:36:07] that needs to be monitored right now. [00:36:10] Yeah, I just think you would start [00:36:13] with a small contingency there, [00:36:16] eight hours a day, 16 hours a day, [00:36:19] whatever, seven days a week, or whatever, [00:36:21] once you put a skateboard park in. [00:36:22] I think, right now, we just need to be monitoring it, [00:36:25] but if you put a skateboard park there, [00:36:27] we're going to put a small rec center there. [00:36:31] Or go without the skateboard park. [00:36:34] I don't know how much activity is there, [00:36:36] or move it into a more urban area, the way they're... [00:36:42] I think if it was renovated, [00:36:43] I think we'd have more activity, [00:36:45] because all my friends that still skateboard, [00:36:48] they all go to Tampa. [00:36:50] Because this is not a challenge to them. [00:36:52] It's not enough. [00:36:54] And so, is there enough room on that spot for a real one? [00:36:56] That's the question. [00:36:57] Whether you had a competition or anything else there, [00:37:00] it may not fit. [00:37:01] It's probably minimal. [00:37:06] I don't... [00:37:07] Worth a discussion. [00:37:08] I don't know if we need to, [00:37:10] I guess they can figure all that out, [00:37:11] calculate it out, as far as parking, [00:37:13] but I don't think we need to get crazy with parking. [00:37:15] Right. [00:37:16] For that, like I said, [00:37:19] everything is in distance from them. [00:37:21] We can do golf carts, shuttle. [00:37:24] It's low income. [00:37:25] I mean, they come in with their Cadillacs. [00:37:28] I don't know. [00:37:29] I don't think so, so. [00:37:31] Shouldn't. [00:37:32] Yeah. [00:37:33] You wouldn't want to say that. [00:37:35] And Dale will require parking. [00:37:38] So we'll need some, [00:37:39] and we can't stress our Recreation and Aquatic Center [00:37:44] by giving away all of our parking. [00:37:48] So they will need parking, [00:37:50] and we'll look at that [00:37:52] and make sure that they'll have enough on this space. [00:37:56] Right. [00:37:57] I'm just saying, [00:37:58] it's got to be some kind of formula ratio. [00:37:59] I mean, they don't need 80 spots, you know. [00:38:02] We can have some staff parking back here [00:38:06] on the undeveloped piece that you have. [00:38:09] We get staff parks on the circle all the time anyhow. [00:38:11] I mean, back there at the city yard, [00:38:13] if you didn't have to expand the pond as designed, [00:38:16] that's quite an expansion. [00:38:17] You don't, it's almost as big as the site already. [00:38:20] And all that water is already running off of that site [00:38:24] onto the road. [00:38:25] So from a practical standpoint, [00:38:27] I can't even imagine how much additional stormwater [00:38:31] you would have. [00:38:32] Right, we were just being conservative. [00:38:34] Yeah. [00:38:35] You know, the conceptual design. [00:38:36] That's why the planners have to take over instead of us. [00:38:39] Yeah. [00:38:41] But I think it's a good opportunity [00:38:43] to build relationships with the folks, [00:38:46] the sugar daddy we have right now in the county [00:38:50] without being too worried about them. [00:38:52] You didn't say that out loud. [00:38:53] Yeah. [00:38:54] Well, they got the money, man. [00:38:56] 580 million doesn't come around into one county. [00:38:59] And they have been looking for projects, [00:39:02] and we qualify because we are low income still. [00:39:06] Well, it's what we're gonna do with it, too. [00:39:08] When they, yeah, well, not just for this project, [00:39:12] but the other projects. [00:39:13] It's helping the county as well as it's helping us. [00:39:15] Yeah. [00:39:18] Well. [00:39:19] Do you have more questions of us? [00:39:22] I have one. [00:39:23] So you brought up the Red Cross building? [00:39:25] Yes. [00:39:26] How would we be able to possibly tie that into this deal? [00:39:30] It would be linked to the lease term for the property. [00:39:38] And what's that Red Cross building really worth? [00:39:42] Probably in the three to $400,000 range. [00:39:49] And it's not the building, [00:39:50] it's the property that has the value. [00:39:52] Big lot. [00:39:55] It goes all the way back to the alleyway, right? [00:39:57] Mm-hmm. [00:39:59] To the road? [00:40:00] Yeah, road to alleyway. [00:40:01] Both sides, yeah. [00:40:02] Yeah. [00:40:04] I think we should try to tie that in. [00:40:09] The county administrator suggested that [00:40:12] when I spoke to him last. [00:40:13] And not the building value, just the property value. [00:40:16] Right. [00:40:17] And the reality is, this is chump change to them [00:40:20] for all the money they're dealing with. [00:40:23] All they want is to see the cooperation and to, [00:40:26] and of course, Ann Marie, this is big money to them [00:40:29] because they're a smaller organization. [00:40:31] So the different players at the table [00:40:34] have a different perspective [00:40:36] and different levels of anxiety, obviously. [00:40:39] But I think it, [00:40:43] I think Claude Pepper would be very happy [00:40:45] as the father of senior services was way back in the day. [00:40:49] And I'm not sure that that building, [00:40:52] you know, when you look at it in the picture [00:40:54] and the site that it's on, [00:40:56] who knows if the architect or the design people [00:40:59] might find it as a potential, [00:41:03] take the roof off, well, maybe not, but you know. [00:41:06] I'd find Claude Pepper underneath it. [00:41:09] He was in the 80s when I met him. [00:41:11] Yeah. [00:41:12] In the 80s. [00:41:13] Anyway, I think it'd be a great opportunity. [00:41:16] And you did bring up at the beginning of this meeting [00:41:19] the question about the cares and the lease. [00:41:22] And this is a lease they pay a dollar a month or no lease? [00:41:25] A dollar. [00:41:26] A dollar a month. [00:41:28] And the, [00:41:31] I had been visited by Dr. [00:41:35] Zee? [00:41:35] Zubalaga. [00:41:36] Zubalaga. [00:41:37] Thank you. [00:41:38] And Dr., former public health director. [00:41:45] I've known for years, now I can't remember his name. [00:41:49] They didn't describe that they were taking, [00:41:52] I had heard the word, [00:41:53] one of the volunteer women who had worked for cares, [00:41:55] which can't get paid anymore, [00:41:57] to your point in your email that you wrote. [00:42:01] But they have some 80 doctors or others [00:42:05] who were taking care of people, [00:42:06] and it would be nice if the project [00:42:11] could have a clinic in it if it wanted to, [00:42:14] or they could find another spot. [00:42:16] So they're all anxious that they want to stay [00:42:19] in the building, [00:42:20] but the building ain't going to stay there [00:42:22] under this term. [00:42:25] Pardon me. [00:42:26] In my conversation with the county administrator [00:42:30] last week, [00:42:31] discuss potentially the county housing, [00:42:35] the clinic, [00:42:37] and he's due to get back to me [00:42:39] about the potential of using some county space [00:42:42] to accommodate that need for the county residents. [00:42:47] And as soon as I hear something back from him, [00:42:49] I'll report to you on it, [00:42:51] see if there's a chance. [00:42:53] If not, we're going to want to be helpful too, [00:42:58] in finding some space so that we know [00:43:01] that people are being taken care of that are our residents. [00:43:05] They're taking care of not just seniors, [00:43:07] they're taking care of people in need. [00:43:08] Currently are, yes. [00:43:09] That doesn't matter age. [00:43:11] Yeah, so that's my point too. [00:43:12] It's not, it's a senior center, [00:43:14] and you know, we're good. [00:43:16] Anyhow, you got my point. [00:43:18] Yeah, right now they're just being helpful [00:43:20] and volunteering and... [00:43:22] Which is great. [00:43:24] It's kind of like the old building [00:43:26] we've got now on Bank Street, [00:43:28] that it was a year before they built anything. [00:43:30] So it's not like they got to be shuffled [00:43:33] off to Buffalo today, [00:43:35] but they're a different entity. [00:43:39] They're not the care center. [00:43:42] And so I think that we do move to terminate [00:43:47] that lease, not functioning. [00:43:53] They are sub-tenants of a lease that is not functioning. [00:43:57] Right, and they've lost their insurance coverages, [00:43:59] and now they're in our building. [00:44:01] What's the liability now? [00:44:04] Oh, I don't know how the rest of the building... [00:44:05] Do you have any other things you need from us? [00:44:07] We could renegotiate something with the clinic [00:44:12] if we wanted to, with the terms [00:44:15] that they'd have to be relocated at some point, [00:44:18] versus a bad look to kick them out. [00:44:21] I just asked Debbie. [00:44:23] She's happy, thinks she's got the guidelines from us [00:44:25] from what we want to do. [00:44:27] All right, well that gives us a break time then, [00:44:30] before our six o'clock. [00:44:32] Pizza. [00:44:34] At least that's what Judy said. [00:44:35] Judy's got something cooking. [00:44:38] Nothing else? [00:44:39] Nothing else. [00:44:40] Okay. [00:44:41] Colin, thanks for the input. [00:44:43] Just a quick head up. [00:44:45] He was here for backup. [00:44:47] He was here for backup. [00:44:52] He said don't leave. [00:44:54] I didn't call on you either. [00:44:55] F**k's wish.

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3. 3Adjournment