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   Discussion Regarding Food Trucks

   discussed

   Council discussed the city's mobile food vendor ordinance at the request of Councilman Butler/Councilmember Manz, who asked that the ordinance be amended to allow business owners to store a mobile food truck on their own private property when the truck is an asset of their existing business. Discussion covered concerns about abuse (food trucks used as billboards, rotating trucks competing with brick-and-mortar restaurants), state preemption under FL Statute 509.102, and possible limits by zone or tying ownership to the principal business. Council directed staff and the city attorney to draft amended language and bring it back.

   • direction:Council directed the city attorney and staff to draft proposed amendments to the mobile food vendor ordinance allowing storage of mobile food trucks on private property when tied to the principal business, and bring it back for review. (none)

   📍Bank Street📍Main Street📍Massachusetts🏢Backdrafts🏢Infusion🏢Texaco🏢Tops👤Butler👤Manz👤Matt👤Peter Alvin#Chasco Fiesta#Florida Statute 509.102 (Mobile food dispensing vehicles preemption)#Section 13-563 (Standards for mobile food vendors on private property)

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   [00:00:20] Discussion regarding food trucks. Thank you Mr. Mayor. The purpose of this [00:00:27] workshop is to discuss the city's ordinance related to mobile food [00:00:33] vendors. The discussion is being conducted at the request of Councilman [00:00:43] Butler who expressed some interest in amending the ordinance to allow for the [00:00:52] storage of mobile food trucks in the city at the location of [00:01:06] private property where the owners of the unit actually own a mobile food truck. [00:01:19] So that sort of got the ball rolling and I know some others of you in recent [00:01:27] times have said, mentioned some things to me about mobile food trucks in general [00:01:33] and we've gotten a little bit lackadaisical and some of our standards [00:01:39] for mobile food trucks, so I thought it'd be a good idea just to bring the whole [00:01:43] mobile food truck ordinance out and to get some input from you in the event [00:01:50] that there are some changes warranted to the ordinance. And in that regard, I [00:01:56] provided a copy of our mobile food vendor ordinance as an attachment to [00:02:02] your agenda item this evening. Thank you, Ms. Manz. Yeah, I see this as a two-fold [00:02:08] conversation. One, about an issue that was specifically brought up to me by a [00:02:14] business owner that has a unique situation where they own a food truck [00:02:20] and they have the space to store it. I'd prefer not to. They own the food truck [00:02:25] and they have a place to store it on their property, but our current ordinance [00:02:30] prohibits it altogether. And then perhaps we can have that larger conversation [00:02:35] about the ordinance since over the years it has been brought up about [00:02:38] certain parts that needed addressed. So if I could just turn your attention to [00:02:42] section 13-563. This is in the ordinance. Standards for mobile food [00:02:49] vendors on private property. The specific language that I would... Is the [00:02:56] attorney joining us tonight? I thought he was due to, so I'm surprised that he's [00:03:00] not down with us. Some of my questions are pointed towards him, but I'm [00:03:04] hoping staff can help with that. It says frequency, so I won't read them verbatim, [00:03:09] but it's clause B and E. The way it's written is that it's prohibited [00:03:15] to store the mobile food unit. And the way I see it is that if a business that's [00:03:21] here has a mobile food unit as an asset of their business, it's registered to [00:03:28] the same LLC, and they can accommodate the space, that our ordinance [00:03:32] shouldn't prevent them from parking it on their private property. And that's [00:03:38] where I'm at, that's where I stand, and so I'd love for the city staff to figure [00:03:41] out if it's a zoning issue where we just need to allow it in certain zones, [00:03:45] because it says unless the zoning and the use of the property allows for the [00:03:49] storage. But they have been cited by code, so we know that the current property [00:03:55] does not allow for it. My mind goes to some of the smaller properties where if [00:03:59] they did have a mobile food unit, that could create a problem where there isn't [00:04:04] place to store it on the property, or it's parallel parking and that's not [00:04:08] considered private property. So I'm open to having a larger conversation, but [00:04:13] where I stand is that it needs to be adjusted to be able to allow for that [00:04:16] storage. That's where I'm at. Did you guys have any questions or any commentary to [00:04:20] add on? Can you talk a little bit about... I'm having a really bad ear [00:04:27] infection. Can you talk a little bit about why we have that part of the [00:04:31] ordinance? Why we don't, well... Do you remember why we... I recall that we didn't want food [00:04:43] trucks to be stored in any part of the city, just like we wouldn't let people [00:04:50] bring their boats or their trailers or any other piece of equipment and park it [00:04:57] on their private property, whether or not it's related to their business. [00:05:04] Totally understandable, and so the difference here is that unlike a boat that needs the [00:05:09] water to be impactful, the food truck is complementing the business. It serves... [00:05:15] and perhaps there's a way to work a degree of aesthetical standard [00:05:21] into the language. Because it's broken up, the way it's written, it [00:05:27] says unless the zoning of the use of the property allows for storage. And so [00:05:30] there's... we can pick and choose here, correct me if I'm wrong, if there is [00:05:36] specific instances where, say in our downtown only, or say on Massachusetts, to [00:05:44] allow that food truck to be there as an accessory of their business. And so [00:05:49] we're not looking at this as a mere storage on a private property, it's [00:05:54] connecting it to the business that it serves. To the point of the specific [00:05:58] business that brought this to attention, we've seen their food truck, we know what [00:06:02] it looks like, and to me it complements the brand that's being built. [00:06:08] Let's give the example that you have a food truck, and you want to park it [00:06:12] downtown, and you own it and I don't own it, but you and I are [00:06:17] friends. So you say, well, you're part owner. So what percent of ownership do I [00:06:23] need, or you need to be, for me to park on your property? It would be my [00:06:27] understanding that if it's an asset of the company, so if they're on the LLC, [00:06:32] then that's... I don't think the city would look at percentages. If they're [00:06:36] on the ownership, then that to me makes sense. I don't see a world where [00:06:40] a business owner would become an owner with a food truck for the sake of storage. [00:06:47] Why I say that is, let's take some people, some people have their own [00:06:52] property, it happens to be a U-shape in the back of their parking lot. [00:06:56] And so they put in four trucks, each one sells 1% to you because you own the [00:07:01] building and you have the property behind it. We also have a restriction on [00:07:04] how many days a week that they can open that food truck. So they start [00:07:09] opening each food truck a different day, and they have, you know, so the base, you [00:07:13] have a food truck there every day. So I have a problem with that, because then [00:07:18] we're not taking care of the brick-and-mortar built stores and [00:07:23] restaurants in town. Right. The way I see it is, the way our downtown is [00:07:27] laid out, there's not a U-shape or... Well, I'm giving you an example. [00:07:32] And the great thing about this ordinance is, as it's currently [00:07:36] written, is that it does break it up by zone, or that you can break it up by zone. [00:07:40] And so again, my mind goes to, if we can give staff the direction of, there is a [00:07:46] not just on the offshoot of Main Street on Bank Street, but also off of [00:07:53] Massachusetts, there's opportunities where, you know, storage of those food [00:07:57] trucks, one, helps the small business owner who is there, but two, it allows [00:08:02] them to keep their brand going and allows them to have an opportunity... [00:08:06] You bring up trying to help this business, help this business, but there [00:08:09] is private property where Tops is. Where what's it? Tops is, the cafe. [00:08:14] So what if somebody in those other stores along there, [00:08:18] because it's all private property, goes ahead and brings in four or five food [00:08:22] trucks, opens a different food truck every day of the week, because they're [00:08:25] partners with the people that has the daycare center there, and then [00:08:30] Tops loses because they can't get anybody in there to park. Everybody [00:08:34] thinks it's a food truck place, and Tops fails. And they're the [00:08:37] brick-and-mortar people that are paying taxes to the city. Absolutely, and so to [00:08:42] the mayor's point, and this is why I would have loved to have the city here, [00:08:45] but please staff, if you can, is there a way to limit the cap of the number of [00:08:51] storage per business owner? Well, that's why I come up with the ideal of [00:08:56] possibly a percentage. If the people own 50 or 75 or 100 percent of [00:09:01] that food truck, then I kind of entertain your idea a little bit. Is [00:09:04] that is that possible to say you have to be the outright owner, or you have to, [00:09:08] your ownership has to be tied to the business? You can say that, yes. It's [00:09:16] difficult to provide evidence of that, and to enforce it, and wouldn't they [00:09:25] have to have a, you know, registered as a food truck? I mean, they have to [00:09:30] have all the, you know, the inspections and all that, so they've got to register. [00:09:34] They've got to have a, you know, business license of some sort to be able to... [00:09:38] They do. Would it need to be registered as that business? Because if it's a pizza [00:09:43] restaurant, they have a pizza food truck, but what if it's a pizza restaurant, and [00:09:47] now they have three food trucks, and they're all different? And that goes [00:09:50] back to the core philosophy of why I want this change, is because if they have [00:09:54] a food truck, but then they have a secondary business, that's not [00:09:57] the city's prerogative to, you have a secondary business, that's your [00:10:01] business. But if you've invested in our downtown, or in our city, and you've [00:10:06] made a food truck in addition to that investment, it's complementing an existing... [00:10:10] Complementing your existing business, but if it doesn't complement your existing [00:10:14] business, because you're basically creating it to be competitive with [00:10:18] another business, that's different than your original business. You see what I'm [00:10:22] saying? Absolutely, and so to my mind, if it's registered under the same [00:10:26] business, if there's a way to make that enforceable, because I wouldn't want to [00:10:30] just put that language in there, and it's not even realistic to enforce, to [00:10:34] Matt's point, then if it's realistic to be enforced, then I would say that that [00:10:42] doesn't become a problem, because it has to be tied to the existing business. I'm [00:10:49] just saying, I understand what you're saying, and I lean toward you in that, [00:10:53] but I just think that when we put the right language in there, it can be abused. [00:10:57] Absolutely, and if there's any input on how to close that loop, other than the [00:11:02] suggestion of tying it to the business ownership. That's going to be the attorney and the city manager. [00:11:06] I'm certain that the attorney has a skill to draft anything that you give us [00:11:13] clear direction on. We just need to know what your wishes are, and if you're [00:11:19] telling us that you want to allow people to park mobile food trucks in the [00:11:28] downtown area on private property, when not in required parking spots, when the [00:11:42] truck is related to the principal business, I get it. [00:11:48] Yeah, you're on the same page. That's fine. [00:11:51] And in your opinion, is there a way for that to be abused in such a way as the [00:11:58] mayor and councilwoman, mother said, the deputy mayor pointed out, where a [00:12:04] business could say that they have principal ownership in three food trucks, [00:12:08] and we're going to rotate them out, because my understanding of storage is [00:12:11] different than operation. So let's go back to that. If you're storing a food [00:12:14] truck there, that's different than operating it. And so, back to the [00:12:20] three food truck idea, if I have one food truck and it is stored there... [00:12:28] Do you want to drive to our downtown and everybody have food trucks in their yards? [00:12:32] And I just don't, I think there's already language to [00:12:39] prevent that, and this doesn't open the door to that, in my opinion. But if staff [00:12:42] has any reason to believe otherwise, or if anyone has experience with this to [00:12:47] see if it's the case, my mind goes to this just opens the door to make sure [00:12:51] those that are expanding and hoping to continue to invest in our downtown have [00:12:55] the opportunity to do so, especially since they have private property that [00:13:01] does not intrude on existing parking that would be perfect for this. And [00:13:05] actually, in the case of this... Well, I think she put it out, let's let her work [00:13:09] it with the attorney and see if they can bring something back to us. In the case of this [00:13:12] specific business, it would be clearing up a bare wall that right now is just a [00:13:16] white solid wall, and then would allow there to be something that represents [00:13:20] that business in the back, in the case of the example that was provided. Do you [00:13:25] need anything else? I didn't hear much from... I've heard anything. [00:13:31] So I'm just offering the opportunity if there's... Well, thank you for the offer. I'm [00:13:36] reading this. So regulation of mobile food dispensing vehicles and temporary [00:13:40] commercial kitchens involving licenses in the state. So the government entity [00:13:46] may not require a separate license, we know that, or require payment of any [00:13:50] license as a condition. And then it says any mobile food dispensing vehicle or [00:13:59] temporary commercial kitchen that is operated on the same premises as and by [00:14:05] a separately licensed public food service establishment may operate during [00:14:10] the same hours of operation as the separately licensed public food service [00:14:15] establishment that operates such mobile food dispensing vehicle. Which section are you reading? [00:14:20] Commercial. This is, this is 509.102. Mobile food dispensing vehicles, [00:14:27] temporary commercial kitchens, preemption. So... He's in state statute. State statute? State statute. [00:14:32] So this is Florida law. So I guess the point that I'm trying to make, if I was to make a point to you, [00:14:38] would be if it's, if it calls out, first of all, you, we can't regulate or license [00:14:44] the food truck. So if it comes into town, it could come into town. Wherever we don't [00:14:49] tell it, it can't. So their parking on public parking spaces, unless we prohibit [00:14:56] them. [00:15:00] And so we can establish locations where food trucks can be. [00:15:05] So the idea of assisting an existing business [00:15:10] by having a food truck as part of their business operation... [00:15:15] Or storage, not for operating. I made that, if you don't mind, I made that clear distinction [00:15:20] that we break it up between storage and frequency in our ordinance, [00:15:25] where frequency defines operational time as three consecutive days, [00:15:30] but storage is where I'm talking about, where it says mobile food units [00:15:35] shall not be stored on private property at any time. The operation thereof is prohibited unless the zoning [00:15:40] and use of the property allows for the storage of that type of mobile food unit. That language there [00:15:45] prohibits a business who operates in the city and out of the city from storing [00:15:50] a food truck on their property. That's all you're asking? [00:15:55] That is the purpose of... That's what she's going to look at. That's what we're here to discuss. No, no, no. [00:16:00] That is the purpose of this, and once we... I'm sorry, Peter Alvin, [00:16:05] you weren't here when I started. I said we're having a conversation about what I requested, and then I hope [00:16:10] that opened the door to a larger conversation about food trucks. But I just wanted to make sure we're shutting the door [00:16:15] on the first part before we move into the larger food truck conversation. So did you have anything on storage? [00:16:20] That way I get my question answered, and then we can have the larger conversation about food trucks. [00:16:25] Yeah, I mean, if you're a commercial property in the city and you have, [00:16:30] you know, the parking spaces are rare, so the idea of storing [00:16:35] a food truck sounds to me like it is advertisement for storage, [00:16:40] other than need for storage. I mean... I think it would be both. [00:16:45] It saves a property owner from having to pay storing it off... Which leads to our [00:16:50] prohibition against having something that's a vehicle in the front of your property [00:16:55] or a billboard type of a business. So I think what we have to do is make sure we understand what we are [00:17:00] doing, and if a decorated mural-type [00:17:05] food truck is attractive and we want to allow for storage, I think we're going to open the door [00:17:10] to other trucks and other types of business other than food services. [00:17:15] That's a great point. So sometimes it pays to look at my phone. [00:17:20] But thank you for straightening me out there. [00:17:25] Which, by the way, I've had three calls... I think that's something that you can add to the [00:17:30] attorney and see if the ordinance that he's talking about and what we're trying to do [00:17:35] can mix. [00:17:40] Did you have anything else on storage? [00:17:45] Yeah, that was kind of my thoughts, too, was, you know, we'd have to really be strategic [00:17:50] because then it opens up the door for people having a food truck out there as a big [00:17:55] billboard, which we were trying to get away from. We didn't want that kind of stuff where we had people [00:18:00] decorating a limo or a U-Haul truck and put it out there for advertising. [00:18:05] There's still license, though. A food truck is still licensed every year, but [00:18:10] again, the cost of licensing and inspections every year, I don't know what that [00:18:15] costs them to have a billboard in their front yard. [00:18:20] My mind is, as this is written, I see that as a problem for the [00:18:25] operations, especially with the three consecutive days. But as a means of storage, [00:18:30] it seems to me like it's already limited to where that's not allowed and this would [00:18:35] only be for those businesses that are already here and [00:18:40] on private property, which like the parallel parking spots in front of the businesses, that's not... [00:18:45] that would not fall under private property. So this really limits, especially in our [00:18:50] downtown, to just those sole spots where you have a business that [00:18:55] has a back end or possibly even a back alley. [00:19:00] Are they restaurant businesses to begin with? [00:19:05] The one that brought this to my attention, yes, is a restaurant business. I didn't want to make this about the interest of one [00:19:10] company, but to case study it, they don't have an interest in making it a problem to compete with a [00:19:15] business they already have interest in. The only reason I ask is because the statute talks about if it's a food [00:19:20] business, they could open it up and use it during business hours, [00:19:25] but it couldn't be open if it was not business hours. [00:19:30] So we really can't regulate that then if the state says that they can. [00:19:35] We can regulate allowing them to park if they want. [00:19:40] It makes sense if you're talking about advertising or murals or whatever. If it's just a guy that has a food truck business who's [00:19:45] selling watches, I'm not sure that it does us any good to break our... [00:19:50] or a different type of business. So food is food. [00:19:55] Can you connect it to that in the ordinance where it has to be industry specific? [00:20:00] It has to be a food and beverage license, or can you go that specific? [00:20:05] Well, what purpose would we have to have a storage facility if it wasn't related to the business, I guess is my question. [00:20:10] It could only use more parking spaces in our... [00:20:15] If I was Infusion, I'd be a little upset if they took my parking spots. [00:20:20] Everybody over there would think that Backdrafts wouldn't be happy. I would think that Infusion wouldn't be happy because [00:20:25] they're taking up parking. [00:20:30] So not to benefit just a specific business, I understand your approach, but I think the statutes lead us to think that we are a food service [00:20:35] and you can have a food truck there. And who knows, during the Chasco Fiesta or a big thing, [00:20:40] that he doesn't want to open it up and operate out of it because he's right there. [00:20:45] And I'm pretty sure the current guidelines are between 8 a.m. and 3 a.m. that they can't operate. [00:20:50] But it says it has to be during their operating hours under the statute. [00:20:55] And it says for up to three days consecutively. So back to the operational part, [00:21:00] my mind goes to storage is separate and they can't abuse the storage of their vending [00:21:05] because then they could still be code violated or told to stop operating [00:21:10] if they start abusing the storage component. [00:21:15] Or we could leave this. You could get what you're asking for [00:21:20] and get them to be allowed to have it on their property. [00:21:25] I think this is at the point where the attorney puts it together for us. [00:21:30] Thank you. [00:21:35] I'm open to a larger conversation because I know it's been two years of constant bits and pieces and I'd love to hear the larger discourse. [00:21:40] I've got a starting shot out of the thing which I've been trying for some time [00:21:45] and we've had some warming up to the idea of limited amount of time parking on Main Street. [00:21:50] I noticed coming back from the bank across the street, [00:21:55] the signs for no trailer parking, no boat trailer parking. [00:22:00] If those signs were one hour parking maximum, there would be no trailer parking. [00:22:05] We could remove the trailer parking signs and say, [00:22:10] this is not for someone to leave something here for an extended amount of time. [00:22:15] Trailer, whatever. Food trucks as well. [00:22:20] And so you could put hourly break of time on it if you want to leave the food trucks back on the nighttime on Main. [00:22:25] To me, I've seen way too many times when those air conditioning units [00:22:30] or those vent units are extending beyond the thing. [00:22:35] And I've seen fire trucks not be able to get through, wait for people to move because they can't get through and I don't like that either. [00:22:40] As much as they like the attraction of the business out front, [00:22:45] I would prefer to see them put the food trucks on the side street or... [00:22:50] The side or the back. [00:22:55] No, these wouldn't. [00:23:00] And I think that's where the operation of a food truck by a food business is restricted, [00:23:05] but yet we can't restrict food trucks from parking on private places. [00:23:10] They could still go. [00:23:15] The owner of a Texaco gas station could still have a food truck on the corner the way I see it under the state law. [00:23:20] Would you agree? [00:23:25] Yes. Under state law. [00:23:30] Is it currently under city ordinance or can it be approved? [00:23:35] Well, most of it's going to be governed by state law on private property. [00:23:40] They preempted us on state law. [00:23:45] Food truck people really united into the state years ago. [00:23:50] The three consecutive days was way back before the state came out with the law. [00:23:55] And I remember the discussion was, well, if they had an anniversary or an annual party, [00:24:00] they've made more out of it than that, but it was always parked on public right away. [00:24:05] So that's the difference of what you're talking about. [00:24:10] If the private property wants the food truck, fine. [00:24:15] If they want to store it there, they can't store it. [00:24:20] If they're a business, they're allowed to have it there. [00:24:25] I think we could open up storage to a food business that has an associated food truck that they can have it there because it does get them. [00:24:30] And we can't be against publicity, really. [00:24:35] We can open the signage ordinance up totally, I don't think, or we'll have every. [00:24:40] And it was Highway 19 that Councilman Starkey was so anxious about the casket or whatever it was that was out there that was a decorative truck that we had. [00:24:55] Operating table, medical tables and all those things. [00:25:00] But so we have some restrictive sign ordinances, and I think some of that is the crossover of what a food truck is to me. [00:25:13] But the three-day thing, I don't think it really makes any sense anymore because it's free reign. [00:25:25] But our public properties, I would love to see Main Street and maybe our Main Braggs not have the food trucks in front of our existing taxpaying businesses. [00:25:35] Well, I mean, I think on public property, I like the three days. [00:25:39] Otherwise, you'd have... [00:25:41] Well, that's fine. Same one there every day. [00:25:44] But we can still restrict the food trucks from Main Street or from the Main Bragg if we feel like it's not... [00:25:53] I think they just got to work with staying within the boundaries of the... [00:25:56] Yeah, the size. [00:25:58] The size. [00:25:59] Yeah. [00:26:00] I mean, I don't want to pick on them because they're a food truck, but if they're going over and you have to put cones out there, then that's... [00:26:06] No, but we also don't want food trucks taken away from our businesses who are paying their business taxes in the city, too. [00:26:11] So to be parked in front of a business that's selling food is, in my mind, is just... [00:26:16] There's lots of enforcement issues that come with it, but I think even the sign, the amount of time that you can park in those parking spaces are so much in demand for someone that wants to do a carryout or drop somebody off or... [00:26:37] I don't know, Chief, you have nighttime patrol knowledge of... Do you have any weigh-in on this? [00:26:47] So the downtown area. So state laws preempted us from some things on food trucks. [00:26:51] So public property, they can park there. Private property or operational, they can park there. [00:26:56] I'm talking about for their business. [00:26:58] We can regulate things if they don't fit in the parking space and they're, let's say, intruding out onto Main Street, they put cones out there, that's not going to fly. [00:27:06] We can regulate them for putting outlets across the sidewalk to hook up to someone's business where the public walks. [00:27:11] We can regulate all that. [00:27:13] But the operation on right-of-way and private property, the state controls that. [00:27:18] I think we can regulate it. [00:27:20] I think we can say where it can be. [00:27:22] We can't not have it in our city, but just like we did with the X-rated stores, we can zone or regulate. [00:27:30] So I'd like to have that explored because, you know, I don't think that a food truck can park anywhere it wants to when we have... [00:27:38] Can't, particularly in parking spaces. [00:27:42] Well, and particularly if we say there's a one-hour limit on these parking spaces. [00:27:49] I don't think we have to go that far because, you know, I go downtown, I want to be able to park for three hours and wander around downtown. [00:27:57] Well, you could do it until a certain amount of time. [00:27:59] The businesses were the ones that always complained. [00:28:01] So you could say until seven or until six or something because the traffic is at night. [00:28:07] Well, yeah, but then you have on the weekends when you have people that want to explore downtown and they want to come for a couple hours, you can't limit them parking there. [00:28:13] Go to the theater. [00:28:14] Well, it could be three hours. [00:28:16] Well, they don't get to park on Main Street. [00:28:18] That's a million parking spaces. [00:28:20] A grand. [00:28:21] I mean, there are purposeful spaces for purposeful reasons. [00:28:25] So it doesn't mean every space has to be available. [00:28:28] But there's a compromise. [00:28:29] Maybe it's two hours for plenty of time for a meal or three hours or whatever. [00:28:35] I don't know. [00:28:36] But... [00:28:37] You move those people that are pulling in to pick up orders, if you move them to Main and keep that flowing, you open more parking in the back or in the theater area because you won't have someone who's trying to use the theater. [00:28:49] You won't have cars that are trying to pick up food across the street using theater parking to do that and holding up spots, in my opinion, if you start putting some limitations on the main uses on the parallel parking. [00:29:01] That's my point because people will stop if there's a space. [00:29:04] They may not stop. [00:29:06] So I think we increase the interest in stopping and seeing something, having the spaces available versus somebody there all the time. [00:29:16] Maybe if it's just Main Street, it's a try, you know, because that's such a heavy corridor. [00:29:23] But I continue to pitch that. [00:29:26] I don't know. [00:29:27] Is there a compromise in there somewhere? [00:29:29] I don't see the real problem right now as long as we keep them in their box. [00:29:34] It's not a regular problem I see downtown. [00:29:37] I'm here every day. [00:29:39] I felt like I had a little support, so let's figure it out. [00:29:44] I don't really want to go. [00:29:45] The time is parking just yet. [00:29:48] Just certain areas. [00:29:50] Instead of going to, is there a place you want to start piloting it or to see if it works? [00:29:54] Because I'm in the same boat as you. [00:29:56] I don't want to put up these 15-minute spots and then they're gone. [00:30:00] empty all day because nobody wants to park there because it's 15 minutes, to the [00:30:05] point an hour, 15 minutes, whatever the time interval is, if we try it out and we [00:30:09] see that now the spot's just not being used, period, then we know not to do it. [00:30:14] Well and we don't, and regulation is, it's just a rule, I mean until we start [00:30:19] deciding that we need more money to start doing the chalk on it to figure it [00:30:25] out, but you know, how many people go to the Home Depot where it says veterans [00:30:30] only or pro member, you know they're not a pro and they're parking in there, that's [00:30:39] right, but at least it could be, it could be directive to folks who do follow [00:30:46] the rules because God knows those people aren't going to follow any rule you give [00:30:49] and so I understand that. I don't know, what, is there something, we're having a [00:30:55] problem downtown in any way? From our perspective? Yeah. I mean, you too? [00:31:03] Did you want to take that first, Chief? Yeah, we used to have some issues but we've [00:31:08] worked through them with our ordinances with state law, so I'm not seeing a huge [00:31:12] problem downtown now. We do have some times they go on Main Street and they'll [00:31:15] encroach a little bit into the right-of-way and we ask them to move it [00:31:18] over so they're not encroaching in the right-of-way. We stop them from running [00:31:21] the lines across the sidewalk on Main Street. We really haven't been having a [00:31:26] lot of issues like major complaints that we're constantly dealing with them at [00:31:30] this point. Okay, then let's have them check back in six months. Come back when [00:31:36] you think the problems arose and we need to do something with it. What's the [00:31:40] obstructing the roadway, I'm not seeing how that's, how a time parking solves [00:31:46] that problem in particular. I was more on the the wavelength of freeing up [00:31:52] those spots for more productive economics and freeing up those spots for [00:31:56] the food truck idea of it, not that part. There's more than one issue, I mean, and I think I heard Kelly jump on that as well a little bit, so. [00:32:07] Well, you have businesses that don't have close access other than those spots and [00:32:13] if we take away those spots, some of the visitors to those businesses, they might [00:32:17] be older residents that aren't going to walk from a parking lot if they don't [00:32:21] have availability in some of those spots, and so I don't think we should take [00:32:24] those away completely. I think that we have to leave some availability there. [00:32:31] It's not the safety issue as much as it is or the problem with the vendors, which [00:32:36] may be out here as much as it is. Good neighbor. Yeah, I mean, the gift shop [00:32:43] who's got, wants somebody to see them and our idea of window shopping and open [00:32:48] windows and decorating up, that is a bit of a block and it doesn't mean [00:32:56] that they can't operate on the side streets or start to continue to work on [00:33:02] the railroad square line in the back and try to create more backdoor business [00:33:07] back there, which is where they've been. It's not all about just doing this to [00:33:13] benefit the food trucks, but it's not about trying to kick them out either. [00:33:19] I think we have a good argument to say, let's have, let's see our city the way [00:33:24] it is with all of our businesses, and at two hours or three hours, you know, [00:33:33] whatever a meal or a stop was, would be, after two hours they've already had two [00:33:40] or three drinks anyway, Chief, so I don't know how long we want to be there if [00:33:43] they're parking in the front. They're shopping, they're not just drinking. I mean, it's definitely an [00:33:47] option, you know, maybe better or not, you know, go into the whole parking meter [00:33:51] thing, but then it regulates it by, you know, people want to pay, you know, but having cars [00:33:58] parked there all day long when they're not really there at that business, I could [00:34:03] see where that would be a problem, and you want to rotate them out, rotate them out, [00:34:06] you know, it's like a restaurant, you want to rotate them out, you know, business. [00:34:11] Well, I'd like to try it from the trailers at the River Road [00:34:20] to Adams Street, where the businesses are currently, that are functioning and arguably [00:34:30] struggling, you know, for their own attention. You're talking to a main or you're talking to all the side streets with parallel parking? [00:34:34] Just Main Street, parking spaces, limited time for the line of [00:34:40] businesses that are not all restaurants, they're not all bars, and some, you [00:34:47] know, may have businesses that come in. Where was your western spot? Western spot [00:34:53] would be at River Road at the light where the brewery is, because they've got [00:34:59] food truck along the side if they need it, which is always where they put, that's [00:35:02] tight in there anyway. They do put food trucks, but they're also, we don't want [00:35:07] the boat trailers, that's where all those boat trailer signs are, so we could remove [00:35:11] the boat trailers and put some time limits, and that would eliminate a boat [00:35:15] trailer from being able to be there, because they'd be timed out. [00:35:18] Nobody goes out for less than two hours. You see a problem in that [00:35:22] area between River Road and somewhere down here, where's the East Park? [00:35:29] Adams. You see a problem in there? I don't monitor it on a regular basis, so it's [00:35:38] it's hard for me to suggest that there's a problem. I just don't want to create a [00:35:43] problem by creating an impediment to economic activity by having people move [00:35:56] along too quickly out of our downtown area and making them think that they're [00:36:01] not welcome. By posting, you know, short stays only, because a lot of our [00:36:11] downtown is pedestrian friendly, so they're not limited to staying in one [00:36:16] location. A lot of people do walk around and visit more than one location in the [00:36:20] downtown area. But I think you definitely are right. I think you should definitely [00:36:24] do it from River Road at least to Bank Street and eliminate those on both [00:36:30] sides of the bridge, make those two-hour parking, and that will eliminate the [00:36:34] trailers parking there and food trucks. We don't really get there anyway. You can [00:36:38] change to where the signs that are now saying no trailer parking, but that [00:36:44] visit eliminates those ones in front of Sims Park too. Right now we have [00:36:52] signs around that say no trailer parking. Why don't we start with changing them to [00:36:56] a two or three hour parking and see that and see what happens from there. Yeah, and [00:37:00] so compromise that Kelly has come up with is extend that to Bank Street, [00:37:05] because those are like welcoming opening parking spaces that we can keep [00:37:10] the trailers off of that. But maybe not, I don't know. I mean we don't have Hacienda [00:37:15] for a meal, you know, to your argument, but I'll just keep that on the back [00:37:22] burner. But sure, thank you for finally letting me off the hook. I think it's a [00:37:27] good swap out for existing signs, at least there. So we're going with where [00:37:33] there are signs now about trailer parking, change them to hourly. On Main. [00:37:38] Wherever we have them. I would hesitate to do just half to Bank, because I think the whole point of it would be to get that to see if the [00:37:51] economics of it makes sense, and if we're only doing half, we're not really [00:37:54] capturing it. Or to Bank Street, because that way it's not taking away parking spots and [00:37:59] people that want to park in front of some of their businesses that they're [00:38:03] going to be shopping maybe for a couple hours, right? I mean if you think about [00:38:07] the existing businesses on Main Street up to Main, that first block is the [00:38:14] narrowest block in town. That's why we can only let two lanes through town, [00:38:17] because it's the tightest of all places. I think that just going where the [00:38:21] signs already exist and changing it there at this point, because that doesn't [00:38:25] come all the way downtown at this point. Well it's kind of under, it takes away the [00:38:32] argument of a quick in and out, so. I like all the way to Grand, only because [00:38:37] then you're still capturing some of those businesses, you're not, maybe not [00:38:41] all the way to Adams, because there are some real retail that way, but if you go [00:38:44] to Grand, you're capturing some of those stop-in, stop-outs. Prime example is the [00:38:53] social right there, and you could see if you're seeing people stop in, pick up, and [00:38:58] go, the only problem you run into is they don't let people enter through that [00:39:01] entrance, so nobody's pulling up there anyways to, are they, are they, did they [00:39:05] open it up for pickups and everything? I thought the host stand was on the other side, so. [00:39:09] They got a nice window there, they ought to be using it, you know. I got the impression [00:39:14] you, the host stand was on the other side of the building, so. I've got some renewed energy to try to [00:39:19] get to, to Grand, and to that degree, we've got a business on the corner that [00:39:25] says they're going to tow people away if they park in those places. Well, I think that side [00:39:28] over there in front of Bourbon on Main Street, in front of Bourbon on Main, and the [00:39:32] social, I think that's mostly employees that park there anyway. And they shouldn't. And they shouldn't be parking. [00:39:37] They can literally move just to the parking lot right behind it. And then we have our big investment in the parking behind. [00:39:45] Man, good job. And you've got one more. Are we on Grand, or are we? I'm good with it to Grand. To Grand? Just, and this is preliminary, just to try it out, see what it looks like, and how will that be measured other than people, I'm imagining you're going to open up a separate phone for all the phone calls that will come in because of it, how, I'm, you know, it's ironic, but. They chalk the tires. How will that be measured? They chalk the tires. Yeah. What's that? They chalk the tires. Chalk the tires? Okay, perfect, thank you. [00:40:12] We'll spend some time talking about it and develop a strategy. We get the signs up and we see how the behavior is, because we're just trying to change the behavior more than giving out penalties, and also. I'm not going to be able to make everybody happy. I don't know what the best answer is, but let's give that a shot. I'd like to get some more input from actual businesses themselves. Yeah, you and me both. And get their input on what they can do. The businesses that will be affected. Yeah. That's why I was suggesting Grand, because when I went out knocking doors during [00:40:41] the campaign, there seemed to be somewhat of a, not a, I wouldn't go as far as to say a consensus, because there never is, but that there was the conversation about the employees parking and shifting them over. But as you go further down, you do have, if you're parallel parked on east of Grand, you do have the ones that want to go around the corner and go down to the consignment, or excuse me, go down to the retail. And so my mind went to, I'm fine with continuing to have that conversation, [00:41:11] but I know who's for and against it, and I think if we're doing it as a trial run, and seeing how we can measure it, we can go back to the for and against, and say, look, this is what we decided. [00:41:23] And to Debbie's argument about wanting people to stay longer than two hours, when they first come into town, we want them to be able to park and get out of the car and be here. [00:41:34] So this town is so crowded at night, I'm guessing there's a lot of people that are just giving up and just driving through if they can't find a spot. So to the degree we can open up some spots those first couple of blocks into town. [00:41:45] Which is why I keep asking for the parking sign, public parking here, public parking here, because nobody, unless you live here, you don't know where public parking is. I have people ask me all the time, and I'm like, no, there's plenty of parking, and they have no clue where it is. So that's where those public parking signs are definitely going to come in. [00:42:01] It's different on Main Street. It doesn't say parking garage. You drive by it before you even know it's there. We've decorated it too much. [00:42:09] The green one you're talking about, the one for the parking garage, or a different one? [00:42:12] People park in private parking because they don't know it's private parking, and they don't park in public parking because they don't know it's public parking. [00:42:19] The conversation I did, when you brought it up for the, I can't quantify it, but you've been bringing it up for a while, and the latest time you brought it up, since then I did see a green parking garage sign go up for the garage, but I haven't seen actual public parking signs go up. [00:42:39] Lots of new business is going to come into town once we get that corner of the river, and we get this old SunTrust building, and we have more people living here. So for those businesses that are holding on, the important thing is that we proceed and they can see the end of the tunnel, because our goal is to bring more business into town. [00:43:02] So to have that discussion about the best way to do it, this is a big area. [00:43:08] The directional signs for businesses and the public parking signs are my two things. [00:43:12] If you're okay with grand? [00:43:16] Yeah, I'm fine with that. I'd take it further, but that's me. [00:43:20] Do you want to put a time limit on this pilot program? [00:43:25] Three hours? [00:43:26] No, like how many months? 30 days? 60 days? [00:43:30] No. [00:43:31] You can do it and try it. You've got to let it go for a couple of years or something. [00:43:36] If there are some issues, then we can come back to it. [00:43:40] Let's do it, and you come back to us and tell us if a town is closing down because we put the time on it. [00:43:44] You're going to know because you're going to get emails. [00:43:46] That's what I'm saying. If you're opening up a second line for all the phone calls going to your office, you might have to move. [00:43:51] We can ask them, what is it that you need to do for more than two hours, and why don't you park on another parking spot? [00:43:58] Because I think you've talked about coming to grand, you're also affecting the theater. [00:44:05] If you're coming to grand, you're also affecting the theater, and that's a three-hour gig. [00:44:14] Don't park there. [00:44:18] Whatever. I'm afraid somebody is going to run into me going down there. [00:44:22] That's right. And if they do? [00:44:25] I have my hidden spot. [00:44:27] So what? [00:44:28] Everybody knows. All the police officers know where I park, but others don't. [00:44:32] We're not asking for a bunch of regulation or effort other than to say putting some signs up and trying to modify the behavior. [00:44:42] And to that point, I don't know if there's a way to know if it's actually being – because we'll get phone calls and emails, but we could put up these signs. [00:44:52] It goes back to what I was talking about a couple meetings ago where the city manager of Orlando for a couple of years, [00:45:00] quite some time said that he removed all the red light cameras but didn't remove the signs. [00:45:06] And the traffic behavior stayed the same where people weren't blowing right on red. [00:45:11] The same thing could happen here where we put up these signs and we say it's working [00:45:14] but the reality is that nobody's honoring the signs and so hoping there's a caveat where [00:45:19] we're actually maybe intentionally enforcing it. [00:45:23] I'm not saying it wouldn't be intentionally enforced but maybe deliberately provide us [00:45:27] some sort of information that shows during XYZ time we went out there and we saw it [00:45:32] being actively used the way it's intended to be used. [00:45:36] The people that own the business. [00:45:37] I mean you made the comment. [00:45:38] I wasn't opening that door but you made the comment so I just wanted to put that on record. [00:45:43] Just to be clear, the point is we want people to obey any rule that we set and we're not [00:45:49] just saying obey it if you want but just to the point of whether it's working or not or [00:45:56] whether people are doing it, there could be an occasional, you know, the folks that [00:46:02] are out there can kind of monitor it and if they put a chalk mark on it, they're free [00:46:07] to do it. [00:46:08] They can come back in two hours and see if everybody's still got the chalk headed straight [00:46:13] down or whatever they do. [00:46:14] The people that own the business and work at those businesses that park out there all [00:46:17] day, they're going to know whether they got away with it or not and they're the ones that [00:46:21] are guilty. [00:46:22] It's not the citizen that comes into town and bum around town, it's the people that [00:46:25] own the business and work at them that leave their cars there all day. [00:46:29] I just want to make sure we're getting good data so when we go back, because like I said, [00:46:33] we know those yes and no's but I want to be able to go back to the no's and the yes's [00:46:36] when we make a decision with actual data to say look, this is what we saw, this is what [00:46:41] we observed, not what I heard from an employee who doesn't want to tell me they were parking [00:46:44] there for more than two hours to begin with. [00:46:46] So just making sure we have a way to get a productive end result out of this. [00:46:51] Part of it is food trucks and it turns into ways in which to keep the food trucks off [00:46:56] of Main Street in that area. [00:46:59] We haven't done anything to restrict the other part but hopefully you will check with the [00:47:04] attorney to determine whether or not we have the right to identify that as a no food truck [00:47:11] road.

   This text was generated automatically from the meeting video. It is not a verbatim or official record. For exact wording, consult the video or the city clerk.

3. 3Adjournment▶ 47:12