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   Discussion Regarding the Mural Ordinance and the Public Art Ordinance

   discussed

   Council held a work session discussion on revising the city's mural and public art ordinances. Consensus emerged to remove content-based regulation (consistent with First Amendment law), prohibit text/lettering except for a uniform artist signature/date plaque, regulate materials and maintenance, allow murals citywide (not just downtown) in commercial and possibly residential zones if visible from street, and to enforce the existing public art fund contribution (0.5% of construction costs up to $100,000) on private developers. Staff was directed to bring back revised ordinances.

   • consensus:Remove content-based restrictions from mural ordinance and prohibit text/lettering, allowing only a uniform plaque with artist signature and date. (none)
   • consensus:Regulate mural materials and require ongoing maintenance. (none)
   • direction:Shift mural review from Main Street to the Cultural Affairs Board before going to City Council. (none)
   • direction:Staff to enforce existing public art fund contribution requirement (0.5% of construction costs up to $100,000) on private developers. (none)

   📍Green Key Beach📍corner of Golf and Grand🏢Cultural Affairs Committee🏢Main Street🏢Wagmore Dogs, LLC🏢Winn-Dixie👤Butler👤Debbie Manns👤Kelly👤Matt Murphy👤Tim👤Ullman#'Have a Sunny Day' mural#CRA (Community Redevelopment Agency)#Complete Angler case (Clearwater)#Mural Ordinance#Public Art Fund#Public Art Ordinance#Wagmore Dogs case

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   [00:00:18] All right, discussion regarding mural ordinance and public art ordinance. If you'd allow me, [00:00:23] I'll go ahead and start Mr. Mayor. Murals or street art have become very prevalent forms of artistic [00:00:32] expression in recent times. Some communities have successfully used murals as an opportunity [00:00:41] to promote economic development. Some communities in that regard have even commissioned artists to [00:00:50] support mural programs. We have some history of ongoing discussion related to mural programs in [00:01:00] our city. We've been talking about making some changes to our mural ordinance since about 2022, [00:01:07] in large part driven by our cultural affairs committee who made some suggestions to the [00:01:18] City Council for some changes which were largely driven by the regulation process and about the [00:01:33] subject matter of the proposed murals. And that went back and forth between the Land Development [00:01:44] Review Board and the City Council and didn't really result in any changes. I think maybe the [00:01:53] effort fell short and when we started to collect just recently ordinances from other communities [00:02:04] that we found that the communities treat it one of two different ways. They either regulate or they [00:02:12] don't. And there's a real big divergence between how communities handle it. But the types of things [00:02:21] where they vary really relate to how they regulate, how they fund ordinances, and how they implement [00:02:33] murals, and then to what and how they go forward with a program. And so what I've tried to do for [00:02:43] purposes of your discussion this evening is to propose some questions that I really feel are [00:02:50] important for the staff to understand so that we can bring you back fruitful ordinances which will [00:02:58] deliver your objectives. And I thought that our efforts would fall short absent looking at our [00:03:07] public art ordinance. Currently our public art ordinance calls for the developers in the city to [00:03:18] make a contribution to the public art fund and it never happens. They're never asked. They are due to [00:03:27] make the same type of contribution to the public art ordinance as is the city on municipal projects [00:03:35] and that's 0.5% of construction costs up to $100,000 on projects and the city is the only [00:03:47] contributor to that fund. And maybe that's not the right number, maybe that's not the right cap, but we [00:03:59] certainly could say if you're not going to incorporate public art as part of your project, you need to [00:04:06] make a contribution of some sort to this fund and we need to use it to effectuate public art in the [00:04:15] city. So you'll see in my key questions that I've asked you to respond to that will be one of the [00:04:25] questions I have for you and I don't know Mr. Mayor how you want to handle it. I can just run through [00:04:33] the seven questions. Let's start that way. First should the city regulate murals at all? [00:04:43] Currently our ordinance is very specific. Currently it gives authority to a non-body of [00:04:57] the city to make a recommendation to the council on whether or not a mural should be approved and [00:05:10] if you want to regulate murals, it would at least have to be a formal board or commission of the [00:05:19] city that played a role in whether or not they advocate on for or against a mural. Who is they? [00:05:33] It's currently the design committee of Main Street and it would have to be a formal board or [00:05:41] commission of the city. Where does the culture affairs board fit in this? They're a formal [00:05:47] board or committee of the city and they would be an appropriate body. So you're saying that [00:05:53] Main Street would review it and then pass it on to the culture affairs board? Is that what I'm [00:06:00] reading? Excuse me, excuse me, we're not, we don't need any input at all. I'm just going [00:06:05] straight forward. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you well. Are you saying that Main Street should [00:06:12] present it to the culture affairs board? No, Main Street should be out, 100% out. It should go to [00:06:19] cultural affairs. Right, that's what I'm saying. If Main Street had an idea they would take it to [00:06:23] the culture affairs board. If anybody had an idea it should go to cultural affairs. Well you brought [00:06:28] up Main Street, that's why I'm asking. I brought it up because they currently review and recommend [00:06:33] to the City Council. Yeah, that's dropping out the culture affairs board, which is who we want to, [00:06:41] you know, get our information from. If you choose to regulate, that's right. Well, Mayor, my mind [00:06:49] goes to, I don't understand why we would have an independent body handle recommendations of this [00:06:55] nature, given that these art projects they've, and maybe the city attorney can chime in, they've, [00:07:02] the law on it with commercial and non-commercial and freedom of speech, it's kind of all over the [00:07:08] place. I'm going to characterize it that way and it puts us in an awkward position where if Main [00:07:13] Street makes the wrong recommendation, is the city liable for that? Main Street's making a [00:07:19] recommendation, but it still hasn't got, right now, it doesn't have the backing of the city or [00:07:24] the culture affairs board. That's why it should go to cultural affairs. Right, exactly, and so what's [00:07:28] the current process is Main Street, City Council. Mm-hmm. And so we're saying, we're saying no Main [00:07:35] Street, culture affairs, City Council. My question is, is that for all projects? Is that for private, [00:07:42] public? Is that, where are we, where does the regulation, the degree of regulation come in? [00:07:48] If you want to have murals, that would be the process, and then we would move on to the next [00:07:55] question, and what are you regulating related to murals? Okay, what, what, what. And Tim will talk [00:08:04] about what you're allowed to regulate in terms of murals. Not only that. If that's the direction of [00:08:14] council to do so. Well, let's find out. Let's listen to what he has to say. If you like, Mr. Mayor, I can chime in at this point. So, artistic [00:08:24] expression is protected by the First Amendment, and we are largely prohibited from regulating content [00:08:32] when it comes to artistic expression. Any attempt to regulate content will be considered under a [00:08:41] strict scrutiny standard, which would mean you'd have to have a very compelling governmental [00:08:45] interest to regulate that content. So, my recommendation would be to remove all of the [00:08:52] content-based restrictions in our current ordinance, and make it more content neutral, if you do intend [00:08:58] to regulate it. Now, that'll leave you with less control, but quite frankly, if you did get a viable [00:09:06] candidate to present a mural, and you denied it, that probably would be overturned by a court. So, [00:09:12] that's just the reality of the situation, and that's why the city manager started off by saying, [00:09:17] some cities have just said, we're not going to be in the business of regulating murals. We're [00:09:22] going to stay completely out of it. There are still some types of standards that you could [00:09:27] apply, but they'd have to be completely content neutral. One of the standards would be that there [00:09:32] be no text included in a mural, and then you wouldn't have words being painted on the sides [00:09:41] of buildings. You would just have graphic images, but your restriction on what those images could [00:09:47] be is limited by the law. Obscenities, for instance, wouldn't be allowed and those kinds of things, but it [00:09:53] would limit you. Now, whose law is that? That's the Constitution. It's the First Amendment, and there [00:09:59] have been cities that have been, their ordinances have been struck down, or they've been prevented [00:10:04] from enforcing their ordinances because of those restrictions. Yeah, so back to the first [00:10:17] question, which is, yes, I see in the handout that there is something called a municipal construction [00:10:25] project, so I'm going to kind of play off of what Councilman Butler has said, which is, are we [00:10:32] trying to regulate at all? And I think the question I have is, if we have this fund and we're willing [00:10:42] to help pay for something, I'm first of all believing we do have some options of approval [00:10:47] if we're going to pay for it. Absolutely. So there really are two different kind of murals, it seems [00:10:52] like. One, which is somebody wants to paint something on their commercial property in a public [00:10:57] place, and two, there are the typical homeowner association rules that we don't have that affect [00:11:06] what people can put in their yard, and we're all familiar with all the stories about basketball [00:11:11] hoops or little statues or whatever that homeowners associations have. So we have a pretty free city [00:11:19] that allows for open expression, some of which is written and some of which is offensive, but [00:11:25] that is what we have. So I would say that if we encourage public art, we could incentivize good [00:11:34] art by this use of the fund to be able to help to have people pay for it, and then we get something [00:11:44] to say. I'm hesitant, and we broke the glass on putting words in when we said have a sunny day, [00:11:55] and we had that whole issue then, which also then segues into commercial businesses using art to [00:12:03] demonstrate who they are, what they stand for, no mice on the cheese shop, no baker at a bakery, [00:12:12] no cookie monster, whatever. And I don't see anything wrong with someone using art to help [00:12:20] to identify themselves. Oh, the bakery, that's the one with the Pillsbury Doughboy on it, or whatever. [00:12:27] So my overall little speech, and I think I can say all I have to say at this work session, which is [00:12:34] we can incentivize art. We may well want to have, as an extra debit to encourage people that are [00:12:46] commercially building, we may want to have a reference to say maybe when the CRA meets, [00:12:53] they could talk about whether any public art is allowable, and they can perhaps help to match or [00:13:01] do something. I know of a situation, another CRA that's putting murals up in a town, [00:13:07] and that's a big thing. If we have to do it on our own buildings or others, but to the main point, [00:13:14] we have to address the issue about language and speech. So I'm really anxious that we allowed [00:13:23] having a sunny day as much as it was beautiful, and it took a year, and everybody wanted to see [00:13:27] it, but I'm really anxious to think that maybe we ought not have anything written, because then we [00:13:34] go into signs, even if it's not completely to the point. And then to the art, I'd like to have it, [00:13:44] you know, expanded beyond what it used to be, to allow for some of that freedom of color and [00:13:52] type of art. When it comes to other murals that people want to put on, maybe we can have some [00:14:00] limits as to size and some kind of public decency language that we could live with in case a judge [00:14:10] had to see something that was quite much like some of the Facebook things I'm seeing in the election [00:14:17] here, you know, that are really inappropriate to be out in public. That's my point. [00:14:24] I just want to finish. I'm going to finish what I've said. The obscenity, like you just said, I think that's [00:14:29] important to regulate. Size, I'm not so sure on, just because we go into that, if we start regulating [00:14:35] size or we're regulating color, is there an argument of regulating materials? Because I know currently [00:14:40] the ordinance calls for a certain type of materials. Is there a rationale behind that? [00:14:43] I think there is. I can't really speak to that directly, but you can have some regulation on [00:14:53] the types of materials that are allowed, like good quality paints that aren't going to spread and, [00:14:58] you know. [00:15:00] you're going to lose the mural effect. [00:15:02] And we can also make people maintain their murals [00:15:06] so they don't become a blob. [00:15:08] But some people might say that's their artistic expression [00:15:11] as well, so it's a very slippery slope. [00:15:16] And the difference between commercial and non-commercial [00:15:18] speech can be taken into account. [00:15:20] But sometimes figuring out where that line is drawn [00:15:23] is difficult, and it's up to the city [00:15:24] to be able to prove where the line is drawn. [00:15:27] There's a good case out of Clearwater [00:15:29] where a bait shop painted large fish [00:15:32] on the side of its building. [00:15:33] The city tried to shut it down as commercial speech [00:15:35] because it's a bait shop, and the court struck it down. [00:15:38] They said, no, they can put up fish [00:15:40] on the side of their building. [00:15:41] And so to try to deal with it as a commercial speech, [00:15:48] if there's no words involved, especially, [00:15:50] that's going to be a difficult case. [00:15:52] Yeah, that was the Complete Angler case. [00:15:53] I looked into that one. [00:15:55] And also, there was an article that [00:15:57] juxtaposed that case with one out of, it doesn't say here, [00:16:02] but Wagmore Dogs, LLC, where all they did [00:16:04] was they painted an animal, too, not fish, [00:16:07] but they painted dogs. [00:16:09] And apparently, because one of the dogs [00:16:11] happened to be cartoonish and in the marketing material, [00:16:14] that counted as commercial speech. [00:16:17] So you had fish, dogs, both are just paintings, [00:16:20] no language content. [00:16:21] But that's what I'm saying. [00:16:22] It's kind of weird that it's like you [00:16:24] can almost go either way depending on what the case is. [00:16:27] So I didn't understand why Main Street had a part to play. [00:16:29] Because then, what if we did have a lawsuit [00:16:32] and it fell on the city? [00:16:35] I think I'm kind of skipping to what should be regulated. [00:16:37] But just to answer, I think it should [00:16:39] have some level of content-based, or excuse me, [00:16:42] no content-based regulation, but the lettering [00:16:45] and the materials used. [00:16:47] That's where I stand on it. [00:16:50] Really? [00:16:51] Yeah. [00:16:51] That's where I'm at, too, is the materials and the writing. [00:16:54] Because I think that's where it kind of gets out of control. [00:16:57] Yes. [00:16:58] Because you can't control what people write in words. [00:17:00] And that would be very difficult to control that. [00:17:03] And I think if we didn't allow words, we would. [00:17:06] Although, I love our sign out there. [00:17:08] And I was all for that because I think it's beautiful. [00:17:10] But I think that it does lead us into what words are OK [00:17:14] and what words aren't. [00:17:15] So I prefer not to have words. [00:17:18] Yeah, I mean, I'm fine with that, too, just no words. [00:17:21] Size is going to be something hard to kind of manage there. [00:17:26] I think you did make a good point about you don't have writing on it, [00:17:30] but companies have logos. [00:17:33] And I would think no company logos or something like that, [00:17:37] even if it's a dog, shouldn't be, because then you're just really [00:17:40] advertising your business. [00:17:41] It becomes a sign. [00:17:42] Yeah, it's a sign at that point. [00:17:44] And you can put a sign up. [00:17:46] I could put a feral dog up there, and everybody would know what it was. [00:17:51] Dogs, too, huh? [00:17:52] I thought it was just cats. [00:17:53] No, just dogs. [00:17:56] Oh, no, your dog. [00:17:57] Oh, I got you. [00:18:00] I got it. [00:18:00] I got it. [00:18:02] I'm used to this humor. [00:18:05] We could inspire artists to take on the challenge. [00:18:09] They can't use lettering. [00:18:10] They have to try to express themselves with it. [00:18:12] Express it without the lettering, yeah. [00:18:13] Look at the positive end of it, like you always say. [00:18:15] Look at the positive. [00:18:16] That's right. [00:18:16] It's a challenge to take on. [00:18:18] Exactly. [00:18:19] But back to the whole, so if we're helping fund these things, [00:18:22] so then we do get a say, but what necessarily do we get a say in? [00:18:26] Well, as Councilman Ullman suggested, if you fund the mural, [00:18:31] then you have complete control over it, all the content. [00:18:35] It becomes government speech, basically, at that point, [00:18:38] and you're allowed to control that. [00:18:40] So if you do set up a system where you get people to contribute so that the [00:18:45] city can manage that money and the city gives out that money, [00:18:47] it becomes the public's money, and then the public has control [00:18:50] over the content of the mural. [00:18:52] But if they didn't take it... [00:18:53] I think that's a process that's being used in some other communities. [00:18:57] But if they didn't take the money, then they can... [00:19:00] And they're on their own. [00:19:00] ...do what they want. [00:19:01] Yeah, that's how they pay for it. [00:19:02] So if there would be somebody would wait around to get that city money, [00:19:06] and then you'd have the control, most people wouldn't spend their own money [00:19:09] if there's a possibility to get the city money. [00:19:11] But would our ordinance restrict the wording still, [00:19:14] even if they did it with their own money? [00:19:16] Yes, it would. [00:19:17] It would restrict... [00:19:18] From what I'm hearing, the consensus is that you'd like to see us take text [00:19:22] out of it completely. [00:19:23] There'd be no words. [00:19:25] What about materials? [00:19:26] I didn't hear it. [00:19:27] I've... [00:19:28] Yeah, that makes... [00:19:29] Materials, too? [00:19:30] Yeah. [00:19:31] That's a no-brainer, really, because, you know, watercolors and rains. [00:19:36] Small caveat, though, has to be the artist's signature, [00:19:40] some reflection of the date and time. [00:19:42] Like, we have a mural that was old New Port Richey in such-and-such year. [00:19:48] So I think that we could say something that would be other than... [00:19:55] And I don't know what the footnote or whatever you want to call it, [00:19:59] other than by some kind of a footnote to reference historical, the owner. [00:20:05] We could come up with some language that would restrict [00:20:08] what you could write there. [00:20:09] Yeah. [00:20:10] Signature and date, yeah. [00:20:11] Maybe you could say, you know... [00:20:13] Signature and date, that's probably far enough. [00:20:17] Maybe the location, if it was a picture of the horseshoes at the beach, [00:20:21] you could say, you know, Green Key Beach or something. [00:20:24] Yeah, but you've got the kazoos, you know, there, [00:20:27] and you've got all these fingers, and there's no names. [00:20:30] You older people, not me, of course, but know all those people there, [00:20:34] you know, where it becomes kind of a guess who. [00:20:37] Maybe it's a plaque, then. [00:20:39] You could have a plaque or something, because that's what that is, isn't it? [00:20:45] Yeah, something uniform, a plaque might be uniform, [00:20:48] because that still could have the artist's signature on the plaque. [00:20:50] Gives them a chance to describe... [00:20:53] You go to an art studio, you might have some little... [00:20:56] I don't know what, there must be a name for that. [00:20:59] That would also be art that we, you know, okayed [00:21:03] or they took money from us to do. [00:21:04] So that would not be a problem if we do that plaque, [00:21:06] but is that plaque still pliable if somebody does it with their own money? [00:21:10] Are we forcing them to, or can we do that? [00:21:12] Well, we could look at setting up a system where the only text [00:21:16] would be based on a plaque that's in an approved form by the city, [00:21:19] and then you've limited it, and then that can limit [00:21:22] exactly what's allowed on that plaque. [00:21:26] And then I heard something about maintenance. [00:21:27] Is that something that needs to be regulated, [00:21:29] putting some number of time on it, how long it's maintained? [00:21:33] For sure, yeah, for sure. [00:21:37] One of the items back in 22-23 when this item was being discussed by you [00:21:45] that kind of went back and forth a bit was, [00:21:48] in what zoning districts do we want to allow these murals to be established? [00:21:56] And there were some thinking that by designating them just in the downtown area [00:22:02] that that would draw people to the downtown area. [00:22:06] There were others that thought it would be okay in any commercial district, [00:22:12] whether it was downtown or otherwise. [00:22:15] I want to just throw that in just as a little sidebar here [00:22:19] to go along with that thought right there. [00:22:21] If we did other commercial areas, I mean, we could sit there and say, [00:22:24] you know, downtown right now, but all of a sudden, [00:22:27] we develop the corner of Golf and Grand, and all of a sudden, [00:22:31] well, it would be good to have it there. [00:22:32] So they're coming back to a council X amount of years down the road, [00:22:36] adding that section, and then maybe it ends up down there by Leaning Tower. [00:22:41] Well, and if we're talking about, you know, it's going to help to draw people in, [00:22:44] every business should get that opportunity, I think, not just downtown. [00:22:47] I think they should all have the opportunity. [00:22:48] But I do want to regulate it to commercial and not residential. [00:22:52] There are people in the residential areas that currently have murals. [00:22:56] Yeah, but we can also stop it at some point, can't we? [00:23:00] Or we have to once we've let it, once they've done it. [00:23:02] If the mural is not visible from the street, [00:23:06] it is private, personal home, say my house, [00:23:09] and I have a mural in the side of my garage. [00:23:12] If it's not visible from the street, why would we not allow that? [00:23:16] Well, some people painted some nice murals on their fence in their backyard, [00:23:20] which the alleyway can see. [00:23:23] What's the thought process behind regulating that? [00:23:26] Well, it's just, you know, the value, [00:23:28] what you put on your house, it's the value of your neighbor's house. [00:23:33] Positively or negatively. [00:23:34] Right, exactly. [00:23:36] My mind goes to, as we're looking to our alleyways and having those neighborhood [00:23:39] meetings and talking about what those can become, [00:23:45] you look to somewhere like St. Pete where they do their art festival once a year. [00:23:48] To Kelly's point about making sure it's fair for everyone, [00:23:51] if we limit it to downtown or just to commercial, [00:23:54] now you have the business community participating, [00:23:56] but there could be someone's cousin who comes and paints on the side of the wall [00:24:00] of their alleyway, and then it turns out, [00:24:03] hey, that rec center has a bare wall facing where the Winn-Dixie is. [00:24:09] You could paint that, put some kids on it playing, [00:24:11] some seniors doing pickleball. [00:24:14] The water tower that Matt Murphy has brought up in the past, [00:24:17] that could become something to attract growth and put something on there. [00:24:20] I'm biased towards a golf-hive buccaneer. [00:24:21] My neighbor's got an ugly cement wall that I would love to have a mural on. [00:24:24] I think it would spur a larger conversation if we kept it open-ended. [00:24:27] And my concern is the, I don't want to go off the alley or residential, [00:24:31] but the commercial on Highway 19, [00:24:34] because is there any federal law or state law that there was like a 600-foot limit [00:24:39] you had to get a permit or is that not for U.S. 19? [00:24:42] Like if we open it up and some businesses on 19 want to do a mural, [00:24:46] are they playing in two different wheelhouses? [00:24:49] They could be treated the same way as the other parts of the city. [00:24:51] So U.S. 19 doesn't affect the ability to regulate the murals. [00:24:57] So you're free to do that. [00:24:59] And with residential, we would just have to look at design standards [00:25:03] and what design standards we can implement [00:25:06] as to whether or not you could have a mural in a residential area. [00:25:10] And there's some limitations on what we can do in that regard. [00:25:13] So it's clearly not commercial speech. [00:25:17] If it's not commercial speech, [00:25:18] then theoretically they should have the same rights as anyone else. [00:25:22] Those, I thought that came out great. [00:25:23] And that's interpretation. [00:25:25] But at the same time, whether I think it's great or not, [00:25:27] I think they should be able to do that. [00:25:29] I just think sometimes you'll have a neighbor have an artwork on him [00:25:34] just to harass his neighbor. [00:25:36] Very good point. [00:25:37] And so as it comes to which, sorry Pete, go ahead. [00:25:41] No, you're right. [00:25:41] I've been monopolizing a little bit. [00:25:42] No, no, I'm fine. [00:25:44] Be like the old Western movies, I guess, you know, [00:25:46] I'll meet you in the alley. [00:25:49] I don't know. [00:25:50] I mean, I have to say that it's best sometimes [00:25:53] not to create a regulation against a problem we really don't have. [00:25:59] And it's something we could always try to do later. [00:26:03] But I like the idea that we're coming out with a positive message. [00:26:06] Hey, we're going to encourage murals. [00:26:08] We're going to put some money in. [00:26:09] We're going to start trying to increase that art fund. [00:26:12] And let's try to promote the art to the degree [00:26:15] that we could see if public, you know, pressure works. [00:26:18] How do you feel if some, if Pete Altman comes and says [00:26:22] he wants some money from the Culture Affairs [00:26:24] and the City Council to put a mural on his house? [00:26:28] We only give it in the promotion of our business community. [00:26:34] I just want to bring that up. [00:26:36] So I'm with you on keeping it in the commercial [00:26:41] and the retail for us funding. [00:26:43] Okay. [00:26:44] Even a home-based business, which by law could happen [00:26:46] on any street in any residential area. [00:26:49] Because, you know, I keep trying to get Dixie [00:26:51] to do the popcorn and the boiled peanuts on the corner there. [00:26:56] But I haven't got that worked out yet. [00:26:59] Well, middle school kids will probably buy it. [00:27:01] That's what I'm thinking. [00:27:02] As you give one of them, two of them a job, they will. [00:27:06] Got this big peanut in mine on the corner, [00:27:09] on the back of the garage there. [00:27:11] I just wanted to bring that up so it's, you know, [00:27:14] on the table. [00:27:16] I think that the funding should be for businesses, [00:27:19] not for residential. [00:27:20] Yeah, for commercial. [00:27:21] Because they wonder sometimes whether they get [00:27:23] all the services that, for the taxes they pay. [00:27:26] But I also think that the wording should be restricted [00:27:29] in the residential also. [00:27:31] If we're going to restrict the commercial business, [00:27:33] then we should, you know. [00:27:34] I agree, consistent among commercial and residential. [00:27:37] Otherwise you will have neighbors who will write something [00:27:39] because they don't like the next door neighbor. [00:27:41] Yeah. [00:27:43] This public art is, the word is public art. [00:27:46] And so I think to be true to the title, [00:27:49] it's public in the sense that it's on public corridors [00:27:52] and public places where the public gathers. [00:27:56] And so the other is private art. [00:27:59] And we don't have to regulate it or try to work our way [00:28:04] into the sacred constitutional provisions. [00:28:09] And I mean, I've seen some pictures of people [00:28:13] that are painting sidewalks, but that's a city sidewalk. [00:28:16] But again, if we're requiring people [00:28:18] to maintain the sidewalks, [00:28:20] I've seen this sort of imagery [00:28:22] where you think you're walking into a hole or something, [00:28:25] you know, where they make it look like whatever. [00:28:29] So who knows what is going to happen [00:28:31] and whether people like it or don't. [00:28:33] But we can allow some creativity [00:28:35] and we'll deal with it, I think. [00:28:38] Can we do that with this ordinance [00:28:40] and keep it in that commercial zone [00:28:44] without prohibiting residential, but without specific, [00:28:47] but making sure that it's not incorporated [00:28:50] in our public art fund qualification? [00:28:54] Yeah, it sounds like what I'm hearing [00:28:56] is that you would prefer to make the funding limited [00:29:00] to the commercial properties, [00:29:01] but we would largely stay out of trying [00:29:03] to regulate people's artistic expression [00:29:06] on their residential properties. [00:29:08] And I think that's wise, [00:29:10] unless you perceive that there's a problem [00:29:12] that needs to be addressed. [00:29:14] Because, you know, somebody might hang up, you know, [00:29:16] a big picture on their front porch or something. [00:29:19] And, you know, technically that can be argued [00:29:21] that that's a mural or something. [00:29:22] What about the wording? [00:29:23] Likely, if they're not doing it now, [00:29:25] they're not going to do it then. [00:29:26] Well, we do have some regulation on free expression signs. [00:29:30] And I think that that could be used [00:29:32] as a method to control messaging, [00:29:35] but people also have the right to write messages [00:29:37] on their private property. [00:29:39] And that's why we have a free expression sign limitation. [00:29:43] So that, and we'll certainly make sure [00:29:44] the definition of a mural excludes any text, [00:29:48] other than as we've talked about, [00:29:49] the possibility of having some language [00:29:52] about the artist or something. [00:29:53] I have to look at that and make sure that I'm comfortable, [00:29:56] or maybe we use the plaque idea as a way of saying it. [00:30:00] deal with that and then we make that uniform or not, you know, because some artists might [00:30:04] want to write his name and it's bigger than the painting. [00:30:06] I don't know. [00:30:07] You know, maybe that's not what you want. [00:30:09] He'll know that, he or she'll know that in advance anyhow. [00:30:12] Yes, those will all be in the rules that we set out, right. [00:30:15] Yeah, we'll make it proportionate to the size of the art. [00:30:21] Let me just add that we're talking about just having the ones we pay for, but we're still [00:30:25] regulating that for commercial properties, even if they don't get that, in terms of [00:30:32] having them to have to obey the rules of the mural. [00:30:36] We are, all the other paint, the maintenance, and all of that. [00:30:40] Yes. [00:30:41] So residential, commercial, content-based materials, maintenance, and then public art [00:30:45] is its own separate thing? [00:30:47] Or is residential now different? [00:30:48] No, as I see it, there's two different things. [00:30:52] Residential's different. [00:30:53] Right, but I'm not talking about... [00:30:54] Well, the public arts fund, that conversation's question seven. [00:30:58] When we're talking about ordinance number 2024-2301, changing that, residential and [00:31:04] commercial have the same standard. [00:31:06] There's no residential... [00:31:08] This is providing for... [00:31:09] We're on question four, and what zoning district? [00:31:12] So when we're talking about the zoning districts, there's no difference now, delineation between [00:31:17] the different zoning districts, is what we're agreeing to? [00:31:20] Because that's where I'm at. [00:31:21] If we've moved, I want to know if we've moved from there. [00:31:23] Well, because I think that question was originally, is it just downtown or is it outside of downtown? [00:31:26] And I think it should be everywhere, commercial. [00:31:29] Just commercial. [00:31:30] Yeah. [00:31:31] So we're not letting residents... [00:31:32] We're not regulating residential. [00:31:33] We're not paying for it. [00:31:34] Right. [00:31:35] There's two different things. [00:31:36] There's the regulatory side, and then there's the public funding side in the public art [00:31:41] ordinance. [00:31:42] And as you recall, we just amended that ordinance to allow public art to be placed on private [00:31:46] property as long as it's accessible to the public, and through a licensing agreement [00:31:51] that we have with the property owner. [00:31:53] So those same types of restrictions could also be applied in the use of murals that [00:31:59] are funded by the government. [00:32:01] So the regulatory side is we're going to require maintenance where we're going to require certain [00:32:09] types of materials, but we're not going to regulate the content. [00:32:13] And that's going to be throughout anywhere in the city. [00:32:16] Okay. [00:32:17] Right. [00:32:18] That's where I'm at. [00:32:19] Is there... [00:32:20] Yeah. [00:32:22] Is there an annual inspection where we decide whether their paint or the quality of their [00:32:29] work needs to be... [00:32:31] I think... [00:32:32] I'm not... [00:32:33] I'm sorry. [00:32:34] Go ahead. [00:32:35] If you're looking at me, I think the answer to that should be let code enforcement deal [00:32:36] with it. [00:32:37] If it becomes a nuisance or we get a complaint, then it's a nuisance. [00:32:40] That it is... [00:32:41] That's what I'm asking. [00:32:42] It's not being maintained. [00:32:43] I don't know that you need to have an inspection program specifically for this. [00:32:47] Okay. [00:32:48] We just have to grandfather in what's already out there. [00:32:50] We can't make them go back and change it. [00:32:51] Yeah. [00:32:52] Well, it's the quality. [00:32:53] Right. [00:32:54] Those... [00:32:55] I haven't seen a problem with the quality. [00:32:56] It's a normal function of ordinance. [00:32:58] It might not be annual, but they'll notice if they start to decline in condition. [00:33:06] Do we still have the Leaning Tower on the side of the building at the Leaning Tower [00:33:10] of Pete's? [00:33:11] I think it used to be... [00:33:12] I think we do. [00:33:13] I think so. [00:33:14] Facing Marine Parkway. [00:33:15] It's funny because you don't notice it after you drive by it a million times. [00:33:18] Right. [00:33:19] Do you have any other questions that you have? [00:33:20] I do. [00:33:21] I wanted to know what you think about having a mural master plan developed for the city. [00:33:30] For what purpose? [00:33:31] So that we can commission artists with our public art fund to establish murals in prominent [00:33:42] or desired locations in the city. [00:33:46] Yeah, I'm good with that. [00:33:49] Sounds like we need it. [00:33:50] Yeah. [00:33:51] I haven't thought about that for a while. [00:33:52] All right. [00:33:53] With that master plan, that's obviously through a consultant. [00:33:54] Would the Culture Affairs Committee have a role to play with that? [00:33:55] They certainly would. [00:33:56] Great. [00:33:57] What else? [00:33:58] And then, what do you think about the idea of amending our ordinance? [00:34:00] our public... to the public art ordinance to make sure not to be a threat to the public [00:34:13] art community. [00:34:14] That's what we need. [00:34:19] Great. [00:34:21] And to our public... to the public art ordinance to maybe strengthen a little bit or change [00:34:32] the way developers may contribute. [00:34:37] Without a doubt. [00:34:40] Because otherwise whoever goes in and rents it will come and ask us for money when the [00:34:45] landlord should have donated in the beginning. [00:34:49] Good point. [00:34:53] What do we mean by small contribution? [00:34:56] We'll know when we bring it back to you with a recommendation. [00:35:00] Depends on how much work Greg does on the side. [00:35:04] Goldilocks. [00:35:05] You're looking for Goldilocks. [00:35:07] The size of the project and the construction budget specifically. [00:35:14] I wouldn't think that... [00:35:16] But that, you know, contributions to that fund wouldn't necessarily all go to murals [00:35:21] either, would it? [00:35:23] No, and the current ordinance does allow you to defer a portion of the contribution if you [00:35:31] institute public art in conjunction with your project. [00:35:34] And I think that is a good provision and it should be maintained. [00:35:40] I just don't think that you should not be able to do either and walk away. [00:35:44] Right, that's why I was... I walked. [00:35:47] Okay. [00:35:49] Just to bring... quantify it. [00:35:52] $100,000 worth of improvements would give you $1,000 for a percent. [00:35:58] $500 for art on $100,000. [00:36:01] So $1,000,000 property is going to bring what? [00:36:06] $5,000 worth of art for $1,000,000? [00:36:11] $50,000, right? [00:36:14] 0.5%? [00:36:15] 0.5%. [00:36:16] Yeah, 0.5%. [00:36:18] I was told there'd be no math. [00:36:23] The point being we're not asking for a lot. [00:36:25] Lawyers don't know anything about math. [00:36:27] You're asking an attorney to do math. [00:36:29] Unless it comes to one-third or 40%, then they know those numbers. [00:36:34] And then the last question isn't near as astute as it was when I wrote it. [00:36:40] Because now that we've had the discussion, it's clear that you would [00:36:42] allow us to use the public art fund to make improvements of murals on both [00:36:48] public and private property. [00:36:53] See, that's why... [00:36:54] Public, not private. [00:36:55] That's why I was trying to bring up earlier. [00:36:57] Public and private as long as it's not residential. [00:36:59] That's right. [00:37:00] Public and private as long as it's not residential. [00:37:02] Yeah, okay. [00:37:04] As long as it qualifies under our program. [00:37:08] Right. [00:37:11] And I can't think of anything additional that I need at this point. [00:37:14] I think you've given us clear direction. [00:37:17] Are there any other changes that you'd like to see? [00:37:20] I just feel like maybe we see this art, [00:37:24] we're going to have an art district in town, [00:37:26] or like the city of Brampton has a whole area that's sort of like our art area. [00:37:31] Is the police chief an artist? [00:37:34] Yeah. [00:37:35] Well, I'm thinking the overlay district is probably what that would be in [00:37:39] sometimes, right? [00:37:40] We've got like beauty shops and little stores and... [00:37:45] You'd think a lot of buildings that would look better with a mural. [00:37:48] Well, the guy, I'll just say already, [00:37:52] he's commissioned an artist, it's the music comic book shop. [00:37:57] And he wants to do more of a comic books on the front side of his building, [00:38:01] but in the backside of the building, [00:38:03] he wants to do some history going along with Hacienda [00:38:06] and the stars that we have along there. [00:38:11] The overlay district, does that make sense? [00:38:13] That's kind of our middle. [00:38:18] And you have some businesses in there, [00:38:20] but you could say there's a person from a building department standpoint, [00:38:26] if they're going to operate a business in the overlay district, [00:38:31] they may not be in the commercial zone, but they're a business. [00:38:36] So this would apply to businesses that operate in the commercial property [00:38:43] areas, because we've got residents that are in the commercial zone, [00:38:49] and then we would have somebody saying, [00:38:51] we let you paint a mural on my house, [00:38:53] but you won't let me have one on my house somewhere else. [00:38:58] So do we have to be careful about how we identify where we're... [00:39:02] No residential, so if it's a residential home, [00:39:06] even if it's between buildings that have murals, it's residential. [00:39:10] That's what I'm saying. [00:39:11] It doesn't go to the commercial structure. [00:39:15] Yeah, so that covers it. [00:39:17] Thank you. [00:39:18] Yeah, because it's commercial structure, not zoning. [00:39:21] What about the artwork that goes up during the festival times, [00:39:26] like Halloween and Christmas on the glass of the businesses? [00:39:29] Would that be regulated by this now if we're changing things? [00:39:33] We wouldn't get them that quick. [00:39:34] They'd be down before. [00:39:35] Yeah, that's temporary. [00:39:36] That's going to be washed off before you even got to see it. [00:39:38] Well, that's why I'm bringing it up, because of the materials. [00:39:41] If we're now calling into question materials, [00:39:44] could they technically complain and make a code complaint, [00:39:49] and then it have to be decided? [00:39:51] No? [00:39:53] No. [00:39:54] Wouldn't it hurt to put another line, holiday art, window art? [00:39:58] Excluded? [00:40:00] Oh, no, window art, not necessarily. [00:40:03] Well, you get into some sticky areas when you start excluding certain things. [00:40:08] But I know what you're talking about with the holiday art, [00:40:11] and there's been court cases where they said you can't allow holiday decorations [00:40:15] if they don't meet with your mural restrictions.

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3. 3Adjournment▶ 40:18