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   Discussion w/Florida Redevelopment Association Attorney Clifford B. Shepard RE: Upcoming CRA Projects

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   Attorney Clifford B. Shepard of the Florida Redevelopment Association presented an educational session to the CRA Board on the do's and don'ts of CRA law, including permissible uses of tax increment financing, the importance of CRA plan flexibility, and the impact of 2019 legislation tightening allowable expenditures. City staff also presented background on economic development and redevelopment in advance of an upcoming CRA plan update.

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   📍Main Street and 19🏢Florida Redevelopment Association🏢Kaiser University🏢University of Florida👤Clifford B. Shepard👤David Cardwell👤Debbie Manns👤Donnie👤Driscoll👤Greg👤Peter Altman👤Steve Lindorf#2019 CRA legislation#CRA plan update#Dade City CRA#Interlocal agreement exception#Jacksonville Beach CRA#Tax Increment Financing (TIF)

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   [00:00:15] Cliff Jeppard to come here and kind of educate us. This is informational for us. [00:00:22] There probably won't be any time for public input, but we're here to learn [00:00:28] from you. Well I do want to make a bit of an introduction before we get [00:00:37] started on the agenda. The reason that we've asked you to convene around the [00:00:43] table today is really timely and it's based on the fact that we are [00:00:49] updating our CRA plan. We hope to bring that to conclusion for you within a [00:00:56] month or so and we want to continue to be in compliance with the law and as [00:01:07] such we have brought forward today a premier expert in CRA law, Mr. Cliff [00:01:20] Jeppard, who will be part of our lineup today to talk to you about CRAs. Before [00:01:29] we turn it over to Mr. Jeppard, I wanted to spend a little bit of time just [00:01:34] talking about economic development in general, redevelopment, and then we'll [00:01:39] give Mr. Jeppard a little bit of time to talk about sort of the do's and the [00:01:44] don'ts of CRAs and specifically about the use of CRA trust fund dollars for [00:01:54] marketing and for special events because there we think that there is some reason [00:02:01] for us to talk about that based on some 2019 legislation which may give us cause [00:02:08] to think differently about the way we consider items in our budget going [00:02:12] forward and then Greg is going to talk to you a little bit about CRAs and then [00:02:21] we'd really like you to engage Mr. Jeppard along the way and any questions [00:02:26] that you may have. With that being said, we'll pull up the PowerPoint that we've [00:02:33] put together for you and I'm going to try to flip through my portion of it [00:02:44] pretty quickly and I start with the first slide which is what is economic [00:02:50] development and keep going. One more Donnie, there you go. No, there you go [00:02:57] Donnie. What is economic development? Economic development is really a [00:03:05] definition of programs, policy, or activities that are intended to improve [00:03:12] the economic well-being or quality of life in the community. When we look at it [00:03:18] more completely, it's meant to be a plan that is locally owned and designed and [00:03:28] it guides economic prosperity and resiliency of a community through a [00:03:34] redevelopment stage. That's something that the city has been in for a long [00:03:40] time. And redevelopment, as you all know from your seats on CRA, is much [00:03:49] easier, I'm sorry, much more difficult than new development. We don't have [00:03:54] virgin land to work from in the city of New Port Richey. All of what we're doing [00:04:00] is absolutely redevelopment and it makes your roles all the more important [00:04:11] and our CRA all the more important of a tool to make sure that we utilize it [00:04:17] appropriately. Redevelopment, go back Donnie, is a process that allows us to [00:04:28] revitalize deteriorated or blighted areas and it's in accordance with a plan. [00:04:34] It provides initial funding to launch the revitalization of an identified [00:04:40] project and most importantly, I thought it was important to say, that [00:04:45] redevelopment encourages and attracts private sector investment that likely [00:04:51] wouldn't occur otherwise. And I think that's most most powerfully demonstrated [00:04:58] through some of the projects that we've been able to effectuate through the [00:05:04] city's CRA. For instance, if we as a body weren't bold enough to assemble the [00:05:14] properties at Main Street and 19, we would have never solidified Kaiser [00:05:22] University as an anchor to our city at that location because they weren't going [00:05:33] to do it. They refused to do it, to even consider it, but because a public sector [00:05:43] was willing to and once we had, they were willing to talk about a project. [00:05:49] Next slide. So why do you need redevelopment? Quite frankly, because the [00:05:59] risks and costs of reinvestment of a redevelopment project outweigh the [00:06:07] benefit for members of a private sector. In our case, that has been the [00:06:15] tradition. So redevelopment is a catalyst because it brings new life into an area [00:06:23] in need of economic development and resultantly it ends up providing the [00:06:29] private sector with the confidence that it needs to complete a project. And we [00:06:36] know that based on our downtown experience. Somebody had to go first and [00:06:44] it is that private investment always follows public investment and until the [00:06:53] private sector feels confident enough to invest, they won't. When they're [00:07:02] surrounded by neglect or the lack of reinvestment, they don't keep up. And [00:07:12] until the CRA was able to motivate reinvestment and to set a new example of [00:07:21] an appropriate standard, the private sector wasn't investing. Now we see it. [00:07:29] Now we don't have to motivate to the same degree that we had to. Next slide. So [00:07:37] how does redevelopment encourage private sector investment? The restoration of a [00:07:47] blighted area is often not feasible for the private sector to do on its own. So [00:07:53] it's through the participation of a CRA and the use of the tools that we have [00:08:00] available to us that the risks and the cost factors make a project more [00:08:09] attractive and economically feasible for the private sector to undertake. So [00:08:15] without offering incentives or without offering rebates and taxes, they can't [00:08:24] handle it on their own. Next slide. So what are the types of things that CRAs [00:08:34] typically do to encourage private investment? They acquire and assemble [00:08:42] project sites. They construct or rehab necessary project area infrastructure [00:08:49] like sanitary or storm sewer systems or roads or putting overhead utilities [00:09:00] underground. They offer low-interest loans or grants to businesses that [00:09:06] implement physical improvements to their own properties. They can build affordable [00:09:13] housing. They can help low and moderate income individuals to become homeowners [00:09:19] and fund the rehab of existing housing for working families. They can clear an [00:09:26] area of existing blight to prepare a site for redevelopment and they institute [00:09:34] quality of life improvements such as park, public space improvements, library [00:09:39] improvements, other public building improvements. And these are just examples [00:09:46] of the types of things that you have seen us do through our CRA to help [00:09:57] leverage funds within the district to motivate reinvestment so that we could [00:10:03] make more projects to be implemented to motivate more growth in the taxable [00:10:15] value of the district. So a CRA, as all of you know, is a dependent special [00:10:26] district in which future property value increases are devoted to support [00:10:33] economic development projects which have to occur within the district. Our state [00:10:39] law allows CRAs to pledge what is referred to as tax increment so that [00:10:47] they can repay bonds and other types of debts incurred to make investments [00:10:52] within project areas. So in essence what I'm telling you is that redevelopment [00:10:59] agencies fund themselves and they make improvements to their communities [00:11:04] because they stimulate increases in property values that otherwise wouldn't [00:11:09] have occurred. What type of projects do CRAs typically support? They assist [00:11:20] businesses by revitalizing downtowns and attracting new life into older [00:11:26] retail districts. They revitalize blighted neighborhoods. They beautify [00:11:33] communities through streetscaping, improving neighborhood streets, and the [00:11:39] creation of green belts. They build and upgrade public infrastructure and they [00:11:44] build and rehab parks, libraries, community centers, and other community [00:11:48] facilities as examples of what they do. And all of these are things that we [00:11:57] have done through our CRA in the city of New Port Richey. So that's sort of the 101 [00:12:08] version of redevelopment. For you more astute students, I'll move on to Cliff [00:12:16] Shepard. He is a graduate of the University of Florida and he has a very [00:12:28] impressive biography which we have placed in the PowerPoint. We thought [00:12:39] it was lengthy but we couldn't cut anything out because it was so [00:12:43] impressive that we didn't want to leave anything out. But Cliff is known to be [00:12:53] the premier attorney in the state serving the FRA in CRAs law. He's one of [00:13:05] only two attorneys that have served the FRA and he is very well respected as [00:13:17] being the preeminent CRA expert. He has worked with us in the past. He worked [00:13:25] with us in 2019 on a community redevelopment plan. So this is the second [00:13:31] opportunity we've had the benefit of working with Mr. Shepard. And we are [00:13:42] going to talk a little bit about the do's and the don'ts of CRAs and we'll [00:13:52] let Mr. Shepard jump in now. If that's all right, if it meets with your approval. [00:13:59] You've heard enough from me? And he's in good standing in Florida. [00:14:09] I appreciate the kind words and the introduction. It's always a part of the time. [00:14:15] Mushable. And I tried to figure out what I would start on last night. I think I mentioned before we got a 15 to 20 minute presentation to the Dade City CRA board to explain. [00:14:33] The answer really, it started with one question from the councilman which is why do we have [00:14:37] CRAs? Hey Cliff, can you pull the microphone towards you a little bit? Some people in [00:14:41] the background have problems. Is that better? Can you hear me better now? Okay, the question was why [00:14:47] do we have CRAs? And my predecessor, the aforementioned only other one who's been [00:14:54] the general counsel for the FRA, was a guy named David Cardwell. And so [00:15:00] As I mentioned when I had breakfast with some staff this morning and Mr. Altman, for the [00:15:08] first year, year and a half after I took over from him upon his untimely death in 2009, [00:15:14] I would have to start every presentation with, he was the expert and I'm not him. [00:15:20] But through a process of doing it for a long time and having done it a number of times, [00:15:25] I've gotten to a point where I feel more comfortable following in his footsteps. [00:15:29] I'm certainly not out in front of him because everything that I do and everything I know [00:15:33] has been learned by someone who was the architect, if you will. [00:15:38] But why do we have CRAs and what's the idea? [00:15:41] Well, the one thing I would tell you that you need to understand if you don't already [00:15:45] and you may well, I don't want to presume anything, is that CRAs for municipalities [00:15:52] are always a good idea and I will not physically fight, but I will verbally fight with anybody [00:15:58] who says differently and the reason is because you're getting your own money back. [00:16:04] A lot of misconceptions that I surprisingly see are that somehow you're taking money away [00:16:11] from somebody else that doesn't deserve it and so forth, but in fact, you're not taking [00:16:17] money away from anybody else, you're keeping your own money or at least being able to have [00:16:21] it returned to you by the county. [00:16:23] Because a CRA works in such a way that up to 95% and in your case, 95% because you're [00:16:28] in a non-charter county, which for CRA purposes is a good thing, if it's tax dollars generated [00:16:37] by the CRA within the CRA district, which is in your case very broad, it comes back [00:16:43] to you to determine how to be spent. [00:16:46] In non-CRA cities, their tax money goes to the county and then a portion of it comes [00:16:52] back to you, but then the county can ship the rest of it wherever the county feels [00:16:56] like the needs are and these may not be the same needs as you have and the point I made [00:17:02] last night is if I give away $10, but I get $9.50 back, that's better than giving away [00:17:09] $10 and getting $5 back and that's where you are and so it is literally your money being [00:17:17] returned to you as elected officials to figure out how to best spend it to create a better [00:17:24] situation than the ones you find yourselves in, i.e. slum and blight. [00:17:28] So that's the best reason, the best explanation I come up with why CRAs exist, why they are [00:17:33] in my opinion a brilliant idea, sometimes poorly executed by folks who do not want to [00:17:40] color within the lines of the statute and want to spend the money on things that are [00:17:45] not permissible, but I focus on and will focus on the laundry list, which is very detailed [00:17:51] of things that you can spend the money on and hopefully encourage you through today [00:17:57] and in the future to not look to color outside those lines because for lots of reasons the [00:18:06] legislature of Florida takes a keen interest in what CRAs do every session and tries to [00:18:13] tighten screws on what we do and one of those screws that got tightened to our extreme disadvantage [00:18:21] was in 2019 because previously in addition to the laundry list of things you could do, [00:18:26] there were some very important words which were helpful to every lawyer who knows how [00:18:30] to make a good argument and those words were including but not limited to. [00:18:35] So here are the things you can do including but not limited to. [00:18:40] Those words do no longer exist, so you really are within the framework of here is what the [00:18:44] statute says you can do and there is some interpretation there, there is no question [00:18:47] about that, but still that was a direct shot at let's not get real creative anymore, [00:18:55] we don't want you spending money on things that are nuts and so I think that provides [00:19:00] a good segue into what I have been told is coming up before you and that is a revision [00:19:05] of your CRA plan. [00:19:08] And we teach as a best practice, I say we, I am talking now for the FRA, as a best practice [00:19:13] that you should review them every five to seven years, you can do it more frequently [00:19:18] as time permits and as needs dictate, as certain aspects of a plan are completed and other [00:19:24] things should be added, you should do that as often and frequently as you want to do [00:19:29] it. [00:19:30] And the advantage of doing it in a non-charter county is you don't have to ask for permission, [00:19:34] you can simply do it. [00:19:35] In a charter county, that is a whole rigmarole you got to go through and charter counties [00:19:41] have learned to be, because they can be more stingy with their money and so we don't automatically [00:19:47] in a charter county get 95% and some get as low as 50%. [00:19:52] If you get a CRA, if you were trying to create a CR today, you might be lucky to get 50% [00:19:58] and so you are in a good position and so to maximize that, you need to be good stewards [00:20:05] and make sure that the people in the county who will be, even if they can't tell you no, [00:20:10] they can oversee you, will be happy that there is a CRA and they will help promote the good [00:20:17] things that are going on here in New Port Richey, some which I got to see coming over here today. [00:20:22] So why do I think a CRA plan and its amendment is an important thing to talk about? [00:20:29] It's because a lot of people have misconceptions about what it should be and this I learned [00:20:35] directly from Cardwell, I do not want to take credit for it, but some CRA plans are extremely [00:20:43] specific and that is we are going to build this, we are going to build that, we are going [00:20:49] to build the other thing and the problem is when you are that specific, if those things [00:20:53] don't get built, but you have money, what else are you going to do? [00:20:57] The way I describe a good CRA plan, it's like jazz music, is anybody a jazz fan here? [00:21:04] So it starts with an idea, but it goes all over the place and good jazz eventually comes [00:21:11] back to the home base and you recognize it, but it's a different performance every night. [00:21:17] A good CRA plan is like jazz music, it sets parameters which you need to stay within, [00:21:24] but gives you the freedom and flexibility like a good jazz musician to do some things [00:21:29] that were within the parameters, within the law, but give you the flexibility to say, [00:21:34] well we thought we needed a community center, but what turns out we need is a band show [00:21:38] or we thought we needed a wide sidewalk, but instead we need brick line streets or whatever [00:21:42] it is. [00:21:44] The way you structure your plan and the way you word your plan can give you the flexibility [00:21:48] to change course, but still be within your plan. [00:21:51] The reason that's important is because there's kind of the three rules, the first one is [00:21:57] you have to ask anything about a CRA project and where you plan to spend money. [00:22:02] In your case, one of them is a given and that is that it's in the district because most [00:22:07] of your city is the CRA. [00:22:09] So it's in the plan, in the budget and in the district. [00:22:13] So you already have the third one knocked out. [00:22:15] So then is it in the plan, which is what we're talking about now, and if you've got two narrow [00:22:20] parameters on your plan, you've limited how you can spend your money and obviously is [00:22:25] it budgeted for. [00:22:26] So all of those things have to flow together and then all of that has to be with under [00:22:32] the umbrella of what the statute permits and that's essentially what a good plan does. [00:22:38] So for example, you might think, I mentioned earlier today with the staff that one of my [00:22:46] clients did a regional stormwater pond and they specifically said we're going to do a [00:22:50] regional stormwater pond and it worked out, but could have easily said we're going to [00:22:55] find a way to address stormwater needs in downtown and so if it wasn't a stormwater [00:23:01] pond but some other solution, they could have done that and still be within the plan without [00:23:05] having to go amend the plan. [00:23:07] And so that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. [00:23:10] So if you need better street transportation, you might say we need road improvements for [00:23:17] the CRA as opposed to we need to repave 5th and Main or whatever the case may be. [00:23:24] If we need better lighting, that's better than saying we want to put these kind of poles [00:23:30] with this kind of outage and so forth. [00:23:32] The more general instead of the more specific so you have some flexibility to make changes [00:23:38] as changes are dictated by circumstances. [00:23:42] Developer wants, your own wants, taste changes, whatever the case may be. [00:23:46] And so that's, I think, an important thing specifically because if you're going into [00:23:50] the plan process and amending the plan as you're looking through it, kind of I would [00:23:55] tell you or give you an idea that look at it with are you, can you say the same thing [00:24:01] but give yourself some flexibility and still be within the law. [00:24:04] And if you can, then my suggestion is, which comes directly from David, do that, okay? [00:24:11] Now one of the things that I was told that you specifically want to hear from me is the [00:24:16] do's and don'ts. [00:24:18] And I like to be a do's kind of a guy because, again, wearing the hat of the FRA, I attempt [00:24:27] to be as broad-minded as possible under the statute to give you the most opportunities [00:24:33] to do that, which I think is legal. [00:24:35] But I also have to be mindful of the fact that from a state perspective, we're always [00:24:42] literally every session trying to defend what we can do so it's not taken away from us. [00:24:47] And it's a problem because, candidly, as some here will already know, there are agencies, [00:24:53] there are other CRAs around the state that routinely abuse what's permissible in favor [00:24:59] of the non-permissible. [00:25:00] And it's because of those abuses, which then get picked up in the media, that we end up [00:25:05] having to fight the battles that we fight literally every session in the legislature [00:25:09] to keep the rights that we have. [00:25:11] And so when I say something is okay, I'm pretty confident it's okay. [00:25:18] Somebody else might give you a different advice and say, well, I think you can push the envelope [00:25:23] maybe. [00:25:24] But I have to distinguish when I'm here as an FRA lawyer and if I was representing you [00:25:31] individually. [00:25:32] The way I describe it to clients, whether I'm a city attorney for them, which I am for [00:25:35] several cities, or just their CRA lawyer, is whether I would recommend it or whether [00:25:41] I can defend it. [00:25:42] And there's the difference, you see. [00:25:44] Because if I would recommend it, I don't have to defend it. [00:25:47] But if you did it and I have to defend it, I can tell you whether I have a good argument. [00:25:51] I think Mr. Driscoll would understand and appreciate what I'm talking about there. [00:25:54] And that's the difference. [00:25:57] So with my FRA heart, Pat, I'm asking you not to push the envelope. [00:26:02] But if you did, then I would let you know whether I thought I could defend it. [00:26:05] So that's essentially where you need to know where I'm coming from. [00:26:10] So what kind of things might seem like they would push the envelope but that can be done [00:26:15] that might surprise you? [00:26:17] Somebody who I think Peter might remember. [00:26:21] Do you remember Steve Lindorf? [00:26:23] Okay, Steve was a long-time FRA board member. [00:26:27] He was also the CRA director for the city of Jacksonville Beach. [00:26:33] And I absolutely believed he was insane when he told me that he used his CRA money to build [00:26:39] a new police station, which should immediately ring a bell with you. [00:26:42] It's like, no. [00:26:44] That's a general building for the public. [00:26:46] That is wrong. [00:26:47] How did you do that? [00:26:49] And the reason he was able to do it is because an exception to all the rules that you're [00:26:53] going to hear today about what you can spend money on projects for is with an interlocal [00:26:57] agreement with all taxing authorities. [00:26:59] In other words, if everybody who's contributing money to your CRA through tax revenue that [00:27:05] you get back agrees to it, then you can spend that money. [00:27:08] And he was the unicorn that was able to go to Jacksonville, which obviously is one consolidated [00:27:14] city in Jacksonville that covers the county and the city, and get an interlocal agreement [00:27:20] with them that allowed him to spend the CRA dollars in a way that would otherwise be 100% [00:27:25] unlawful. [00:27:26] So there are ways, depending on where you stand politically with the county and whatever [00:27:31] other agencies might be contributing to your TIF, if you can get them to agree. [00:27:35] But the general rule is that for general buildings like police, public works, city halls, and [00:27:42] that sort of stuff, you do not get to spend TIF on that. [00:27:45] And that's important for a city like New Port Richey because your CRA is so large, oftentimes [00:27:53] trying to make a distinction whether I can spend CRA dollars there versus I have to spend [00:27:57] general fund dollars there, that can be confusing and there's no doubt about that. [00:28:01] And you're not unique in this regard. [00:28:03] I have a couple of different cities who have a similar situation where they're literally [00:28:07] city limit boundaries are also their CRA. [00:28:10] And so it's a constant problem of trying to figure out, okay, which pot of money did [00:28:14] we get to spend? [00:28:15] But the thing I need to emphasize when it comes to that pot of money, and it's actually, [00:28:19] if you don't mind, whoever's doing the slide, can you go to the last slide? [00:28:27] Very last one at the end, that's what I meant. [00:28:35] One more where it said trust fund. [00:28:37] It is the last slide. [00:28:40] There you go, right there. [00:28:42] See those big words, redevelopment, focus on the last two, trust fund. [00:28:49] People forget this, but the money that you're getting in your own tax dollars back is like [00:28:55] if you have your own estate plan, right? [00:28:58] If you have an estate plan where certain monies are in a trust, you know that there are certain [00:29:01] things you can do and certain things you can't do because it's a trust and it's a tax break [00:29:06] for being a trust, but you also have to make sure you don't abuse the trust. [00:29:10] Same thing. [00:29:12] As a lawyer, I have a significantly sized trust account of which I own zero of the money. [00:29:19] I'm simply a repository for my client's money. [00:29:22] So if settlement comes, funds come through, if cost deposits come through, whatever it [00:29:26] is, I don't own a penny and I have to balance it to the penny or I literally will lose my [00:29:34] license by the bar. [00:29:36] They're not serious about a lot of things at the Florida Bar, but that's one of the [00:29:38] things they're real serious about, okay? [00:29:41] So why is that important to me to emphasize to you today? [00:29:45] Because when I'm telling you that the parameters are there and they're pretty broad, but you [00:29:50] still have to stay within them and color within those lines, that's what I'm talking about. [00:29:54] And I think it makes it easier to do that if you think of it as it's not just tax dollars. [00:30:00] It's now tax dollars that are in a trust fund, and you have to be sure about how you spend [00:30:06] trust fund dollars, and that's why I thought that slide was important. [00:30:09] Can I highlight something there? [00:30:11] Yeah, sure. [00:30:12] So, just let's try to etch that in everyone's mind, the don'ts, because you have this great [00:30:17] mantra that it's got to be in the plan, in the budget, in the community redevelopment [00:30:20] area, but Florida Statutes, Chapter 163, Part 3, that's where all the law is for CRAs, and [00:30:29] it very specifically says what you shall not do, and there's a difference when it's shall, [00:30:35] it's a commandment. [00:30:36] There's no option there. [00:30:37] It's shall and shall not. [00:30:39] So to Cliff's point, you cannot use increment revenues for the construction or expansion [00:30:45] of admin buildings for public bodies of police or fire unless each tasking authority agrees. [00:30:50] That's that interlocal agreement. [00:30:52] There's another little exception, too, for what we call community policing innovation. [00:30:55] So if you have community policing in your redevelopment plan, which we do, and you find [00:30:59] a need and have a logical what we would call nexus, a connection, then you could make [00:31:04] it happen. [00:31:05] You cannot install, construct, reconstruct, repair, alter any publicly owned capital improvements [00:31:10] or projects if those projects were scheduled to be installed, constructed, reconstructed, [00:31:14] et cetera, et cetera, within three years of the approval of the plan by the governing [00:31:18] body. [00:31:19] Why? [00:31:20] Because the governing body, the city in this case, is not supposed to be putting expenses [00:31:24] on the CRA that it should take care of anyways. [00:31:27] This is supposed to be an enhancement. [00:31:29] This is supposed to be community redevelopment. [00:31:30] It's supposed to be extra. [00:31:32] And then so this last one is going to make a lot of sense. [00:31:34] You can't use the increment revenue for general government operating expenses unrelated to [00:31:39] planning and carrying out a community redevelopment plan. [00:31:42] So when a lawyer, preeminent or otherwise, talks about quote unquote community redevelopment, [00:31:48] when a practitioner like your executive director or your economic development director say [00:31:52] community redevelopment, it's not just like, oh, a general term. [00:31:55] It actually means something very specific under Florida statutes. [00:31:59] And the more that you can understand that and be conversant in it, the better we can [00:32:03] communicate to the public and come together around our community redevelopment plan. [00:32:07] So it's exciting stuff. [00:32:09] Well, ironically, everything that Greg just went through is on this slide of a presentation [00:32:15] that I didn't bring to bank to you, but as my own reference. [00:32:18] Also not legal in the CRA and everything he just said is on that slide. [00:32:22] Now, one of the things that I wanted to point out to you that has become a source of some [00:32:27] controversy, and I'm more than happy to speak to it and will, since 2019 is the issue of [00:32:35] funding marketing events and whether or not you're permitted to, you know, sponsor. [00:32:43] And these are the questions that I've been asked by other CRAs who will go nameless. [00:32:47] Can we put on a rodeo? [00:32:50] Hey, we'd like to sponsor a concert and we'd like to have a, because it'll attract people to the CRA. [00:32:56] And we're going to do an arts festival and on and on and on. [00:33:00] Well, how much of those expenses are bricks and mortar? [00:33:04] And the answer is for most of them, none. [00:33:06] And that's an important concept because back in 2010, the then Attorney General McCollum [00:33:14] issued an opinion requested by the then city attorney of Sanford, a guy named Lonnie Groot, [00:33:20] somebody who I know, and who was also board certified in city, county and local government, [00:33:26] whether or not the city could do a couple of different things. [00:33:29] Number one is, could it spend money on marketing, essentially to promote the CRA, to say, hey, [00:33:34] we've got a great CRA, come down and spend money here, which logically, if I was the guru of making [00:33:42] the statute, I would say, of course, what else would you want to do? [00:33:45] You're trying to promote economic development. [00:33:47] You're trying to do it within the CRA. [00:33:49] This is what you should do. [00:33:51] The second question that he asked, he being Mr. Groot, asked was, what about donations to nonprofits [00:33:58] who do good works within the CRA, within the community? [00:34:02] How is that going to be seen? [00:34:04] Can we do that? [00:34:05] I can only presume these are things that Sanford either had done and was asking forgiveness or was thinking about doing [00:34:10] and was asking permission. [00:34:11] And either way, if you ask the Attorney General a question, you better already have a good idea of the answer, [00:34:18] or you may get a surprise. [00:34:21] And the answer to those questions was as follows. [00:34:23] In 2010, and it's a very weirdly worded opinion, because if you were a grammar teacher, you'd say, you need to say [00:34:35] that in a better way. [00:34:36] But as to the marketing part and special events part, what they said is, I cannot say that it's not okay. [00:34:47] And they based that opinion on the including but not limited to language. [00:34:52] So it's not saying it's okay, it's that I cannot say that it's not okay. [00:34:58] So it bothered the Attorney General, but the including but not limited to language was the catch-all that made it okay. [00:35:08] Even though the opinion says in it, as far back as 2010, the CRA statute clearly expresses a preference for bricks and mortar development. [00:35:18] That's what it's supposed to be for. [00:35:21] On the second question, which has been true always and was just re-emphasized in 2010, no, you cannot give your money away. [00:35:31] That's not what it's there for. [00:35:33] So even if the nonprofit does great stuff, great jobs in the community, does job training, whatever the case may be. [00:35:43] And I emphasize this point because I know that CRAs have become, if they aren't, haven't always been, [00:35:50] they certainly have become recently, targets for folks asking for money. [00:35:55] Because they see, based on the published budgets and the monies, oh, they got a bunch of money. [00:36:01] I'll go ask them for some. [00:36:02] And a lot of them, really, it's no fault of their, they don't understand the rules that apply. [00:36:08] And it's very hard when you're an elected official, or in this case, an elected official who serves in a pointed capacity for the CRA board, [00:36:16] to say no to somebody that everybody loves, right? [00:36:20] Fill in the blank on the organization you like, doesn't matter to me, and then say, yeah, no, we can't spend the money on that. [00:36:28] It makes you seem like a scrooge, but that's what the rules require. [00:36:32] And so, then in that opinion, they said, the statute in 2010 does not go as far as to allow you to give money away to nonprofits in the community, [00:36:45] even if they do good works, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [00:36:47] So, that's not a new thing. [00:36:50] But in 2019, they took out the including but not limited to language, which was the linchpin, the thing on which that, [00:36:58] the hook on which you could hang the idea of marketing expenses and special events. [00:37:03] That went away, and it has been argued, and I'm not telling you that people won't argue with me that, well, you're being too strict in your interpretation and so forth and so on. [00:37:16] Okay, but let me explain the possible outcomes. [00:37:22] If you spend money improperly, and if it's determined, again, a court ultimately has to make a determination, but there's a lot of things short of a court that are irritating. [00:37:30] One of them is a JLAC audit. [00:37:32] If you don't know what JLAC stands for, it's a Joint Legislative and Auditing Committee. [00:37:36] If someone in the community, maybe a political enemy or rival or whatever, decides that this doesn't look kosher to them and they make a report and you get audited, then these expenditures will be examined very closely. [00:37:52] And usually it's with findings, but I don't know that JLAC has any particular authority to do anything, but the political arena can become significant. [00:38:04] You ought to give that money back to the county, or you ought to do whatever it is it might be, and I've been through these before. [00:38:10] So it's not pretty. [00:38:12] Can it be worse? [00:38:13] I guess the answer is yes. [00:38:15] It definitely can be worse from a statewide perspective regarding CRAs generally, because it's exactly the kind of stuff that causes them to want to change the law and further limit what we can do, if not eliminate them altogether. [00:38:27] And by the way, in case you doubted it, it has been proposed to eliminate CRAs. [00:38:32] It's just never gotten through, but that's not something that's been off the table. [00:38:35] It's been proposed more than one time to just get rid of CRAs. [00:38:39] Now, they can't get rid of them in the sense that any ongoing expenditures you have, debts that you have, those are protected. [00:38:46] But they can say, we're never doing this again, and you've got to wind it up by this amount of time except for unpaid debt, and there's a number of things that they can do. [00:38:55] If I was to cite an example, regardless of what side of this issue you're on, Disney never thought it would lose Reed Creek, but it did. [00:39:04] Now, will that stick? [00:39:05] Who knows? [00:39:06] I don't know, but it happened, and I guarantee you that up until about two years ago, they would have never thought that was even a possibility. [00:39:13] So that's what can happen. [00:39:15] And so I will never claim to know everything, but I've been around the block a few times. [00:39:23] And so that's why trying to stay within the lines of the statute is important. [00:39:28] But even for me, there are things where I think there are opportunities to be more liberal in construction, and there are times when I think there's sort of a red line. [00:39:42] And depending on the issue, you'd have to kind of run it by me and say, okay, what do you think about this? [00:39:47] And this happens, by the way. [00:39:48] I do get calls on the regular. [00:39:50] We want to do this. [00:39:51] We want to do that. [00:39:52] What do you think about it? [00:39:53] And usually, if I'm going to give them bad news, I suggest that they just talk to me rather than me put it in writing, [00:39:59] so it becomes a public record for everybody to see the kind of stuff they're considering. [00:40:03] But if it's good news, I'm happy to put it in writing. [00:40:05] So just a word to the wise. [00:40:08] I think the other thing I wanted to mention, and then I will sit here and answer questions for whatever you want to ask me [00:40:16] or cover any topics that you think I didn't cover properly, is it was stated by Ms. Mann accurately that the economic incentives [00:40:25] that can be used to spur development are an important part of what CRAs do, and that's absolutely true. [00:40:32] And she used – I think I wrote this down correctly – when the developers can't handle it. [00:40:39] And that is to say that, okay, I could do this building or this shop here, but it would cost too much relative to the things that I've got to do [00:40:51] to bring this property up to snuff. [00:40:54] Or I could take the same idea and go over here, and I'll make more money. [00:40:59] It won't cost me as much. [00:41:01] It will be a more profitable project. [00:41:03] And the reason I wanted to focus on that language is because there's another misconception, and that is that it's a bad thing to use public dollars [00:41:15] to fund private business. [00:41:17] That's not true, particularly when the idea of helping the private business or development or whatever is to get it in a position to create more tax revenue [00:41:29] for you to then respend and reinvest in your district. [00:41:32] The mantra that FRA uses and has since long before I got involved is the rising tide floats all boats. [00:41:41] And that's an important concept to understand because as you start the process of creating TIF dollars, that is the increase in taxes from where they were [00:41:50] at the start of the CRA to where they are now, and more stuff comes and develops and those property taxes on that property go up, [00:41:57] then you have more to reinvest. [00:41:59] And it is literally, it's not exactly a pyramid scheme, but the mountain keeps getting higher because of who is climbing it. [00:42:08] And that's good for everybody. [00:42:10] And so the words can't handle it might not be exactly precise as I'd like them to be. [00:42:19] Here's why. [00:42:20] It's not just whether they can handle it. [00:42:23] If I can make 25% profit over here and only a 10% profit over here, where am I going to go with my development dollars? [00:42:30] So I might be able to handle it and still make a profit, but if it's not as profitable as over here and you'd rather have them take that project and move it over here, [00:42:40] then you have to be looking at what you can do to incentivize the development that you want in your CRA so it doesn't go next door. [00:42:48] And so it's not just is it going to be profitable? [00:42:52] It is in a way that people don't often think of how profitable is it going to be when I'm the developer trying to figure out where to put my money. [00:43:00] And that is not a thought that is an illegitimate thought by them or by you guys. [00:43:07] So in this way, some people would say, you're really pushing the line there, Shepard, but no, I'm not. [00:43:12] Because what I'm trying to tell you is the incentives to get the development that you want in the place that you want it need to be such that the people who are coming here can say, hey, there's a good reason for me to come there. [00:43:28] Now, the corollary to that or the not the corollary, whatever, the antecedent, maybe that's the right word, is this is not a giveaway either. [00:43:39] It's not you built a project that I like. Here's all your TIF. [00:43:43] No, if they came here anyway and did a project that you like or that you love, great, but take the TIF and put it somewhere else because they're already here. [00:43:53] You're not incentivizing anything. And this is heavily on my mind because I have a client right now who is making me crazy by doing exactly what I just said, giving away money. [00:44:03] Makes no sense. But incentivizing the kind of development you want, if it's needed to get the people to come here and develop versus somewhere else of projects that you want, that's not a bad thing. [00:44:16] And sometimes there's a public misperception, and Greg can probably speak to this, about economic development being about giveaways. [00:44:25] It's not. It's about you controlling the palette of what your city is going to look like based on your vision and what you can get to come here to do what it is you want to do. [00:44:38] And that's okay, at least for now it is. And so I think that's where I should leave it so that you have plenty of time for questions. [00:44:48] I see it's 1146, and I know I'm here till 1. I can riff on anything like a good jazz musician, but I can also answer questions. [00:45:00] cover? You tell me and I'll be happy to cover it. [00:45:05] Yeah well I appreciate it Ed and I'm very thankful but [00:45:13] maybe the incentive conversation is a good one that we could all have too because [00:45:18] when we started the, when the Main Street Landing first opened, [00:45:22] Mayfree, the tenants were getting, they were getting rent for up to a year. We really tried [00:45:28] to fire up some commercial business and a lot of the focus was on bringing in what [00:45:35] happy as a city to have which is not a bunch of franchises but a really unique place for [00:45:41] people that are top owners and all of the benefits of the farm. Now that we've got people [00:45:47] on the street and can you talk about the evolution of, as you've seen it, of kind of [00:45:54] setting the priorities because as we look at our budget we've set quite a bit of money [00:45:59] aside. Some is actually going into the housing area, [00:46:04] nothing but I was told that paying, helping, giving rent relief for non-city owned properties [00:46:13] could be an issue whether that's a legal issue or not but secondly I've had discussions with [00:46:19] the city manager to say there's probably a point in time where people want to be here and [00:46:25] to your point of focusing on bricks and mortar and improving the quality of life. [00:46:32] Well that is a very long answer type question but I'm going to try to not [00:46:40] do this for the next hour and 15. I'm famous for long questions. [00:46:44] So but I will start with this because the one that comes to me right away is that [00:46:51] it would be my opinion which I haven't researched, I'm just applying, haven't done this for a lot of [00:46:56] years that just giving money to a private project to help reduce its rents particularly now in light [00:47:03] of the live local bill which is going to force you probably into projects you may not even [00:47:07] want regardless of your CRA plan is probably not a good thing or an okay thing. Certainly [00:47:15] something that would cause me to look at it real hard unless you own the project. [00:47:19] Okay so I think that's correct but in terms of sort of the, [00:47:29] what's the word I'm looking for, it's not incentives but it's the [00:47:33] the energy of what happens in redevelopment is and this gets lost and I'll give you a perfect [00:47:42] example because you could call any of the board members there who are also the council just like [00:47:47] you except we have an additional county representative because we are in a charter [00:47:51] city, a charter county, is that we had initially a wave of housing and not the housing we wanted [00:48:00] because again one of the fallouts from 2007-2008 crash is just prior to that and I don't know if [00:48:09] that was happening here but it certainly was happening in central Florida and on all the [00:48:12] beach communities is tons and tons of apartment to condominium conversions which from a property [00:48:19] tax point standpoint are fantastic if you have a lot of apartments you can tax them a lot more if [00:48:26] they're condos in terms of the way it's treated individually and so forth and so on so it's a [00:48:30] good thing but after the crash those went away completely. I don't know if y'all have had any [00:48:38] here but I can't think of the last time I've seen an apartment that got converted to condos [00:48:43] and instead we have had a flood of people wanting to come and build multi-unit apartment complex [00:48:51] communities and not always ones that are are bad in a way of you know they're low rent and they [00:48:57] service a different market and some of them are super high end that I didn't even wouldn't even [00:49:01] want to try to afford to live in but it's a different form of ownership and it's not nearly [00:49:06] as helpful to your property tax rolls as would be condominiums and the reason that's important to [00:49:11] understand is why were these apartments being brought into a CRA area which still didn't have [00:49:19] the appropriate level of commercial and retail and restaurants and the other things that make [00:49:26] people want to live well because in theory the people on the board there would want more retail [00:49:34] more commercial more restaurants more stuff for the residents who are already there to come do [00:49:41] but the problem is you can't survive in a business or at least this is a lesson they've learned [00:49:47] by people who only come in on the weekends right because if you're out in the suburbs you're not [00:49:52] going to go to the restaurants every weeknight you're not going to patronize the shops every [00:49:57] weekday you might some but for the most part those are going to weak endeavors and a business can't [00:50:02] survive on that so what they got wrong they now understand is they needed needed a critical mass [00:50:10] of residents in the downtown CRA to fuel the business desire to also be in the downtown CRA [00:50:18] so it was kind of a reverse of what they thought so they were really mad at themselves because they [00:50:23] approved this project and this we got all these apartments and we're going to have all this traffic [00:50:28] and we don't have any businesses and now they have business after business after business why [00:50:33] because they want to tap into the residential market that's already there and who is that [00:50:37] residential market people like my kids who are adults but who unlike me who maybe I'm anti-social [00:50:45] but I'm still a give me a fence and the fence makes a good neighbor kind of a guy I have over [00:50:50] an acre of property and I like that way don't generally talk to my neighbors you know maybe [00:50:55] once or twice a week if it's good for them it's definitely good for me but that's not how my kids [00:51:01] are all three of them my oldest and his girlfriend live in downtown New York City my youngest who's a [00:51:10] professional musician and shockingly makes money is lives in a real close community of townhomes [00:51:18] and loves to be around people and can do all the other stuff and and my daughter lives in the [00:51:23] middle of downtown Orlando and for the same reasons she wants to be able to walk everywhere and not [00:51:29] okay so clearly I have a personality defect I'm the anti-social one but this is where the growth [00:51:35] is coming and so I don't know to what extent this answers the question that Peter has asked but [00:51:43] the point is there's a synergy that happens through redevelopment and sometimes it's the opposite [00:51:49] synergy of what you think and you might think that approving this housing project is a bad thing [00:51:54] because that's not what you wanted it actually may be the exact thing you need to keep your thriving [00:51:59] vibrant business community afloat so go along with that a little bit that's really what I think [00:52:06] has happened here we have the nightlife here people get off work and they come downtown in the evening [00:52:11] what we do need is the retail pay which we bring the all residents down here [00:52:17] during the day [00:52:21] hate city because they got the daytime [00:52:30] hit that but that's also your kids they're working yeah during the day [00:52:35] they're working during the day and and certainly that is not going to help a business that needs [00:52:40] to sell flowers dresses whatever during the day but at night they're out at the ice cream shop [00:52:46] and they're out at the restaurants and they're going to the local hardware store which they [00:52:51] actually still have which is shocking to me that's not a home depot and that sort of stuff and so [00:52:57] my my kids in New York they like that literally everything from dentist to doctor to bagels to [00:53:06] donuts to you bodegas which I didn't know what that was they had to tell me [00:53:11] um they are all within and this is the term eight blocks he loves it I couldn't stand it but [00:53:19] he loves it and that's where a lot of of of the change is and it's interesting because it really [00:53:25] jives with redevelopment because the term that we use in redevelopment and I'm sure Greg has used [00:53:31] and will use with you is infill meaning instead of going out you come in there's there's real [00:53:36] benefits to that and the reason is because it's much more efficient delivery of services police [00:53:41] fire water all those things if you don't have to extend the pipe this direction or put a substation [00:53:46] out here at the end of the the wherever the city limits are if it's all where you can service but [00:53:52] there's also a natural pushback and there would be here 100 if there hasn't already been people [00:53:56] don't want you to go up too high right probably three stories max maybe you can get to six in [00:54:01] certain locations but height is a big hot button issue should it be don't know but I'm just telling [00:54:07] you it is but still having the ability to have people live in the areas where they work and [00:54:13] service the businesses that are also in the area this is not a bad thing and it builds on itself [00:54:19] copper we've heard from frank stark to give us people the missing middle two three years ago I [00:54:25] think some of us might have been at the town meeting we've been considering these granny flats [00:54:33] and it's also part of the economic strain of the cost of housing secondary housing [00:54:43] and you know the idea of third places I guess [00:54:46] but [00:54:51] things like what do you do with the gulf high school and gating sort of recreational [00:55:03] partnership how do we activate our natural features so that it's not all a focus on [00:55:10] bricks and mortar that turns into tax base but do you see that there is a sort of a balance [00:55:19] to be had in doing a plan forward that incorporates those value driven things versus the quality of [00:55:26] life driven things absolutely and and again those things obviously need balance but the problem is [00:55:35] sometimes at the surface level balance is hard to see again going back to the maintenance example [00:55:41] we got apartment complex after apartment complex after apartment complex and the wheel definitely [00:55:46] seemed like it needed to go to the shop and get balanced but that's what was required because [00:55:52] the balance has come now because now that there is the economic driver of people who actually live [00:55:56] there that will patronize the businesses the businesses can't wait to get there and so what [00:56:01] I'm saying to you is at a surface level it may not be you may think you're out of balance and you [00:56:07] may have to see the passage of time to see that now we were actually doing okay because the market [00:56:11] will figure with one of the biggest things I have to explain to elected officials on the regular [00:56:18] is that no matter how hard you try and no matter how smart you are and I don't deny that we [00:56:25] represent some very smart people the market is not going to let you dictate what it is it's going [00:56:32] to dictate to you what can be built and then you have to decide whether you like it or not [00:56:36] now you don't have to like it and therefore under certain circumstances you don't have to allow it [00:56:42] but if for example which one of my cities did ad nauseum until I finally figured out the market [00:56:47] had run away from them was we're going to have ground floor retail and all of the stuff on the [00:56:54] ground floor and second third floor residential until nobody would build it and they realized [00:57:01] that having that in your plan and this is what we're going to do we had it for 10 years we got [00:57:07] got no proposals they finally figured out maybe that was not a good plan so the market will tell [00:57:14] you and then you have to react and how do you know what the market is telling you well one and they [00:57:20] thought about doing this but we'll hire a market consultant but the problem with market consultants [00:57:25] is unless they are really and truly going to keep you at arm's length they're going to tell you what [00:57:31] you want to hear the market consultants that actually matter and the ones that you have to [00:57:37] listen to even if you end up rejecting the project are the ones the developers are listening to because [00:57:42] they are here to make money and the one thing you can always count on this life is they will not [00:57:46] bring your project they don't plan to make money on so that means somebody somewhere has said this [00:57:51] is going to make money so you have to pay attention to that that tells you what the mark and so if you [00:57:56] get constant demands as for example Maitland did for apartments what does that tell you about the [00:58:01] market they are convinced they will not only be able to build it it will be profitable and they'll [00:58:05] be rented up and they were right what that didn't tell them at the time is what's going to follow [00:58:11] that and so that requires the vision that's why you have an economic development director to kind [00:58:16] of put these things in perspective and say to you okay don't sweat that this is going to be okay [00:58:22] here's what's going to happen here's how i see it or if you need to get a consultant to confirm that [00:58:27] okay i don't problem with the consultants i'm just saying that sometimes when it's coming in front of [00:58:34] you and particularly when you have folks who are are in the audience so to speak that all they see [00:58:40] is as we did in Maitland all these apartments it's too many they're not wrong about how they [00:58:46] feel about it they're just wrong about how it's going to look if you give it time to breathe [00:58:51] and so kind of that's the way i would look at it um and again i hope i i didn't go off i hope [00:58:57] i was addressing your question another thing um this community [00:59:07] about 45 rentals so you know um that that's going to be a turnover on a regular basis [00:59:14] so you know i mean you know can you speak on that at all because most most um communities [00:59:19] are somewhere in the 12 to 15 12 to 18 percent we're 45 well again i don't know how much of that [00:59:28] is based on uh the fact that is this a significant vacation community is that what it is is or did [00:59:34] just because just just um um in the um the mid 80s late 80s um a lot of people died and um [00:59:44] people came and bought the house and started renting yeah well that is going to be a problem [00:59:49] everywhere because that that is a problem that uh so far the legislature has not been able to [00:59:54] figure out how to solve they've tried to solve a lot of problems that don't need solving but in [01:00:00] The ones that actually do need solving, we don't really get the kind of results I think [01:00:04] we deserve. [01:00:06] That's one that needs solving, whether it's through the Airbnb situation or it's people [01:00:10] who are, as is currently being experienced in Orlando, and I guess here it might be. [01:00:15] I don't know. [01:00:16] We have investors that are going into actual condominiums and buying up as many units as [01:00:21] they can and putting them on Airbnb to the imminent dislike of the people who actually [01:00:28] live there and thought this was going to be my residence, but every day there's somebody [01:00:32] new next door or every week. [01:00:34] Airbnb isn't really it. [01:00:35] It's just people bought these houses. [01:00:36] They're 60s and 70s houses, and they really haven't put a lot of money into them. [01:00:37] We actually had to pass ordinances to make them dress up the outside. [01:00:38] We don't go inside. [01:00:39] I'm just wondering, sometimes when you're spending CRA money, if there'll be spending [01:00:40] money for the condominium. [01:00:41] I don't know. [01:00:42] I don't know. [01:00:43] I don't know. [01:00:44] I don't know. [01:00:45] I don't know. [01:00:46] I don't know. [01:00:47] I don't know. [01:00:48] I don't know. [01:00:49] I don't know. [01:00:50] I don't know. [01:00:51] I don't know. [01:00:52] I don't know. [01:00:53] I don't know. [01:00:54] I don't know. [01:00:56] If you're spending money, if there'll be spending money for the population that's going to rotate [01:01:01] on a regular basis. [01:01:02] Maybe. [01:01:03] Again, that in and of itself concerns me, but not because of a CRA's reason, but for [01:01:09] the practical reason, because there is an ongoing narrative, if you will. [01:01:13] The narrative is that renters don't care and therefore they don't take care, and therefore [01:01:19] they are somehow less valuable as residents. [01:01:22] And while that certainly can be true, I think it depends on how much rent they're paying. [01:01:28] And so it really is a significant consideration, because that's the difference between a project [01:01:34] that is a Section 8 housing project and something that is simply affordable, because as I was [01:01:40] discussing with staff and Mr. Altman earlier, the way affordable housing is decided under [01:01:45] Florida law is a whole different world than what you and I might think of as, oh, well, [01:01:50] that's affordable housing. [01:01:51] We don't want that. [01:01:52] Affordable housing could be a stuff that you and I would be really proud to live in and [01:01:54] still be considered affordable under Florida law. [01:01:58] So it's a little bit weird that way. [01:02:00] And just because you're renting it doesn't mean that you'll take less care. [01:02:04] It might, but it really depends on the quality of the project, it depends on the amount of [01:02:08] rent, it depends on a lot of different things. [01:02:11] And the reason why I don't think that should concern you in terms of CRA dollars is because, [01:02:16] again, as long as those people are patronizing the businesses that you want them to patronize [01:02:21] so that you have a vibrant business district, a vibrant nightlife, all the other things [01:02:24] that you want that make the community what it is, then the fact that it's renters that [01:02:30] are doing that, I promise you the businesses say the dollars will spend the same. [01:02:33] They are not going to care. [01:02:34] Can we take a bite of this apple, Executive Director? [01:02:35] And then I'd like to take a bite, too, after you. [01:02:36] Okay. [01:02:37] Of the rental on the homeowner side. [01:02:38] Well, I just would like to make a couple of comments. [01:02:39] Just for the record, there seems to be a societal switch in some respects, and people, [01:02:56] some people are showing a preference towards renting over owning property in general. [01:03:03] So it doesn't necessarily translate that all renters are irresponsible property owners. [01:03:10] Some of them are very good stewards of property. [01:03:14] In that respect, I just wanted to remind everyone around the table that we are working on a [01:03:21] program that we hope to effectuate, and we'll have a discussion with you, I think, Chief, [01:03:27] maybe the second meeting in February. [01:03:30] And we want to be able to institute a program where we take health transition renters into [01:03:40] homeownership. [01:03:41] So hopefully that'll be a part of changing that percentage in the city to more homeownership [01:03:49] from the high percentage of rental population that we experience today. [01:03:55] It's just not this city. [01:03:56] I mean, I go back to your kids. [01:03:57] A lot of young people don't want a homeowner. [01:03:58] Nope, that's true. [01:03:59] And that is a societal shift. [01:04:00] When we were young, we wanted a homeowner. [01:04:01] Right. [01:04:02] It was the American dream. [01:04:03] Right, right. [01:04:04] Right. [01:04:05] So that plays in there a little bit, too. [01:04:06] It does play into it. [01:04:07] But still, we are at a very high percentage. [01:04:08] And so a little bit of a shift would be welcome, nonetheless. [01:04:09] Well, that's what I was going to say. [01:04:10] I mean, I don't know. [01:04:11] I don't know. [01:04:12] I don't know. [01:04:13] I don't know. [01:04:14] I don't know. [01:04:15] I don't know. [01:04:16] I don't know. [01:04:17] I don't know. [01:04:18] I don't know. [01:04:19] I don't know. [01:04:20] I don't know. [01:04:21] I don't know. [01:04:22] So a little bit of a shift would be welcome, nonetheless. [01:04:23] But... [01:04:24] Well, that's what I'd like to piggyback on, ma'am. [01:04:25] Okay. [01:04:26] So let me just preface, if you can't hear. [01:04:27] Can you hear? [01:04:28] Can you hear now? [01:04:29] All right. [01:04:30] So I would just preface that I've been on the job for 23 days. [01:04:31] That includes holidays and weekends. [01:04:32] So I'm still very much in the listening tour portion of my career here in New Port Richey. [01:04:33] But fortunately, while I'm still learning about the job, I also know that I am, in fact, [01:04:34] a year out of the job. [01:04:35] So I would just preface that I've been on the job for 23 days. [01:04:36] And that includes holidays and weekends. [01:04:37] So I'm still very much in the listening tour portion of my career here in New Port Richey. [01:04:52] So I'm still learning about the city, even though I was born here a long time ago. [01:04:56] I have over 25 years as a practitioner. [01:04:58] I've been a CRA director, an executive director, and a CRA board chair. [01:05:01] So I think I'd be recognized as an expert under Florida law. [01:05:05] We'll find that there's a correlation between home ownership rates, crime, education, income, [01:05:13] property maintenance. [01:05:15] The National Association of Realtors and others have promulgated reports that show that correlation. [01:05:19] I had the honor of serving the community for 20 years. [01:05:22] It was the safest large city in Florida, and it had one of the highest home ownership rates [01:05:27] in the country. [01:05:28] And I don't think that was a coincidence. [01:05:30] So I think more than one thing can be true. [01:05:32] I think that the executive director is spot on to point out that we can't cast groups [01:05:38] of people with any broad brush. [01:05:40] That's always, well, that's usually a bad idea. [01:05:44] There's a difference to be had between retail, commercial, and residential, because commercial [01:05:49] so many of your tenants, I mean, probably almost all of them, except owner-occupant. [01:05:56] Maybe a law office is a good example of someone where you might own the building. [01:06:00] Most of the time you're going to pay rent. [01:06:01] We're really talking about the single-family neighborhoods. [01:06:05] And so I'm so happy to find out that that's something that we're going to be working on [01:06:09] is encouraging that dream of home ownership. [01:06:12] And is it that people don't want to own homes anymore, or is it because they're no longer [01:06:16] attainable? [01:06:18] We might find that it's more the latter than the former. [01:06:21] And the beauty of that is that's something that the CRA can help with, because under [01:06:24] Florida statutes, we shall help with affordable housing. [01:06:27] That's one of those shall things. [01:06:29] In fact, if you don't help with affordable housing, you've got to put in your plan why [01:06:32] you weren't going to help with it. [01:06:34] So it's really that important under the plan. [01:06:37] And I just want to now piggyback with one of the things Cliff said, because it's one [01:06:41] of the key concepts, one of the many key concepts he's highlighted for us, is that we're really [01:06:46] focusing on what we would, as practitioners, call gaps or deltas. [01:06:51] And that's the difference between what the market wants and what can happen in our CRA [01:06:57] because of the negative socioeconomic factors that necessitated the CRA in the first place. [01:07:03] So all these things are related. [01:07:05] But my reason for bringing it up is that I wanted to experience in other communities [01:07:10] where the CRA money went when they had a high rental situation. [01:07:15] I'm not picking on us, but just, you know, I know our numbers. [01:07:19] I'm not saying economic level, I'm just saying I know our numbers. [01:07:22] But, you know, where do they emphasize with their CRA money, you know, to help the community? [01:07:28] I think that this makes for a good, and I'm glad that Maitland gives me a free rein to [01:07:34] talk about them, it is interesting for a number of different reasons, some of which the folks [01:07:41] that I've had breakfast with already know. [01:07:43] But Maitland was my first foray into the world of CRAs and how I met David Cardwell [01:07:49] and ultimately came to be sitting where I'm sitting. [01:07:52] So I'll spare you that story, but the short version is it was with David Cardwell's help [01:07:56] we set up the Maitland CRA. [01:07:59] And it is, if you were to look at how Maitland is sort of divided by I-4, there's the west [01:08:04] side of I-4, which is some single family, significantly sized office park, and some [01:08:12] apartments, very little in the way of traditional commercial restaurants and that sort of stuff. [01:08:19] And then there's the east side of I-4, in which you have the vast majority of our single [01:08:24] family homes, and then the CRA district, which is down 1792 slash Orlando Avenue slash it [01:08:32] goes by a bunch of different names, but it's the same road, the business district that [01:08:36] essentially would, you can imagine, would be along a main drag, if you will, of the [01:08:43] city, and 1792 is a main drag. [01:08:46] It's a definitely large six lane road with median down the middle and the businesses [01:08:53] and centers that you can imagine would be along it. [01:08:55] So everything from city limit to city limit that's in that central corridor along 1792 [01:09:01] is the CRA. [01:09:03] So to the extent there's any housing there, it is these apartment complexes that I mentioned. [01:09:08] There's also 155 and older community, high end, but it's that type of community, which [01:09:14] means it is also a rental. [01:09:17] And so you had a beautiful plan when I first got there of this is what we want to see, [01:09:24] but it was not achievable because that's not what development was telling the world was [01:09:29] going to work. [01:09:31] And only when they receded from their plan and conceded that it was not getting the kind [01:09:38] of development that they wanted, because it was getting essentially no development, did [01:09:42] they then start to get things that they thought they didn't want. [01:09:46] But I will say, I'm not an apartment guy, but these are beautiful apartment buildings. [01:09:51] I mean, they're not, you know, your standard, you would not know you were not looking at [01:09:55] a high end condo. [01:09:57] It just happens to be that they're apartments. [01:09:59] And when they got a sufficient number of those, which are all renters, but they're people [01:10:03] who live there, they just choose, as you said, to rent for whatever reason. [01:10:08] Maybe it's because they can't afford it, but these apartments are so expensive. [01:10:12] That's typically not the reason. [01:10:14] It's because maybe they are worried about whether they will end up having to move with [01:10:19] their jobs. [01:10:19] It could be because they don't have any kids and they don't want to spend their weekends [01:10:23] doing yard work and chores. [01:10:25] It could be any number of reasons. [01:10:27] But to your question, which is, what do you do with the money and the CRAs that are like [01:10:31] that? [01:10:33] Nothing different. [01:10:34] Because by having those residents there, which are residents, even if they are renting, you [01:10:41] have to, you have now provided a source. [01:10:44] Still bodies there. [01:10:45] Yeah, they're still buying there. [01:10:48] Their bodies. [01:10:49] Their bodies, they come into the restaurants, they come into the hair salons and all the [01:10:54] other stuff that you can see. [01:10:55] They patronize the doctors. [01:10:57] They go to the Starbucks. [01:10:58] They do all that stuff, which if I ever go through a Starbucks, you'll know that I'm [01:11:01] about to die. [01:11:02] I've never been to one. [01:11:03] I probably will never go to one. [01:11:05] But I get it. [01:11:06] People love them. [01:11:07] Seven bucks for a cup of coffee? [01:11:08] Can't do it. [01:11:09] No. [01:11:10] Thank you. [01:11:11] That's what I was looking for. [01:11:12] Whether you saw anything different. [01:11:13] And that's the thing. [01:11:14] But to your point, it was hard for them to see that putting these apartments in was going [01:11:22] to solve anything. [01:11:23] But it solved everything. [01:11:24] Go ahead. [01:11:25] Yeah, so, you know, I think we do have a CRA because, you know, five square mile city. [01:11:37] And as Ms. Mann pointed out, that, you know, it's all really redevelopment. [01:11:41] There's not a lot of rent, not a lot of raw land left to do development. [01:11:46] I see it's critical that we use the CRA funds for that redevelopment and ultimately increasing [01:11:54] the tax base. [01:11:55] If we don't do that, I don't see how the city long term, I'm thinking 20 years from now, [01:12:02] can function with the expense it takes to run fire and police and public safety and, [01:12:07] you know, building new water treatment plants and everything else, right? [01:12:11] So, you know, maybe part of that is really is to see and I think what we are in now, [01:12:21] we're in this balancing phase, we've got an interesting downtown, we get a lot of good [01:12:27] press out of it, we've got a lot of good visitors, we've got a lot of folks that come from outside [01:12:31] the city to enjoy the amenities that we've built, Sims Park and how we've managed to [01:12:38] get our businesses to re-energize, we're getting ready to break ground on a pedestrian [01:12:46] mall that runs by businesses and so forth and police traffic downtown, we think. [01:12:55] So as I look at the CRA and so forth, what are the projects that we can do that's actually [01:13:00] going to generate some revenue because we've got to attract people, they want to live here, [01:13:09] so do we bring in, you know, folks to put in apartments to bring the people, the businesses, [01:13:16] I think we're in a balance, we're trying to do both at this point, you know, we recognize [01:13:22] to support the businesses we have and support more, we need more people and we believe like [01:13:29] you've talked about other developments that it's people want, they don't want to get in [01:13:34] the car and drive two hours, they don't want to drive 15 minutes, they'll walk 10 but they [01:13:41] don't want to drive 15, so we have a great opportunity here as a city to manage this [01:13:49] because I think we can really improve the quality of life, even our folks, single family [01:13:54] dwellings in a grid, they're on pretty good sized lots, the house may not be big but there's [01:13:59] plenty of room, we have a system of alleyways that can be developed to access secondary [01:14:08] dwellings on those lots that increases the density downtown but doesn't necessarily change [01:14:14] the charm that we have, right? And the fact is that if we have a place that's our live, [01:14:19] more of these rental properties we talk about, people are going to want, hey, I want to live [01:14:24] there, I'm not sure that's the right spot but if I can buy it and I can add on to it [01:14:30] or I can add a second story or I can develop it how I want to, that's going to bring those [01:14:35] folks down and we'll be able to, you know, increase our tax base. So, and without the [01:14:43] CRA, we may not be able to help that happen and interesting about, it seems like the counties [01:14:50] think it's their money and not our money, they don't want to give it up, right? I think, [01:14:56] you know, our neighbors... 100% with the charter counties. [01:15:00] Our neighbors to the north just got slapped here [01:15:03] a year or so ago about having to carve out [01:15:05] part of their cities out of their CRA [01:15:08] because the county forced them into doing it. [01:15:12] But so we'd like to keep our money here [01:15:18] so we can do it. [01:15:19] So maybe we can talk about some just general ideas [01:15:24] and specifics about, that's been kicked around [01:15:27] or looked at to see, is that something appropriate [01:15:32] for CRAs, how would that look? [01:15:34] Maybe get some of your opinions. [01:15:35] You mentioned Jacksonville Beach, which was interesting. [01:15:40] I was up at the redevelopment conference meeting [01:15:43] we had in Jacksonville, or Ponte Vedra, [01:15:46] wherever it was, the place there. [01:15:48] And I was able to take a tour down Jacksonville Beach, [01:15:51] I took that tour. [01:15:52] And they told, we toured an absolutely gorgeous park [01:15:57] that they built, giant playground area that was fabulous. [01:16:03] They had a state-of-the-art skateboard park [01:16:08] that went down and up and all this stuff. [01:16:12] They had a multipurpose field that was with artificial turf [01:16:17] that could be used for various things. [01:16:19] Just really, it was their crown jewel, right? [01:16:23] And they also had a CRA office there. [01:16:26] And they also mentioned their CRA maintains [01:16:29] all that property. [01:16:30] And so I kind of questioned that. [01:16:33] I can see they could build it, [01:16:35] but I don't know how they could use CRA funds [01:16:37] to maintain it and operate it. [01:16:40] And let me simply tell you that I want to claim ownership [01:16:48] of that and have the answer, because I think technically [01:16:53] if you were to call them and say, [01:16:55] who is your CRA lawyer? [01:16:56] They would say me, but I haven't been to any [01:16:59] of their meetings in probably four or five years, [01:17:03] but I have been representing the city council [01:17:05] and I'm currently their city attorney [01:17:07] because their city attorney who was, [01:17:09] they'd have an in-house. [01:17:10] So they don't like to do contract lawyers, [01:17:12] but because I've done a lot of work for them [01:17:14] in a lot of different capacities, [01:17:16] when their city attorney resigned in November, [01:17:19] they've made me the interim or whatever they call it, [01:17:22] whatever the time, acting interim, whatever it is, [01:17:24] until they can find a new person [01:17:25] to sit in the chair full-time. [01:17:27] So I don't know what, the only thing that I mentioned [01:17:30] Jack's Beach for is because of Lindorff being able [01:17:33] to build that police station with CRA dollars. [01:17:36] They're pretty creative. [01:17:39] I will say that it's possible, if not probable, [01:17:42] that they're doing things that had they asked me, [01:17:45] they might not get my seal of approval on. [01:17:47] But I don't know because I haven't had any questions [01:17:51] from them from a CRA perspective in a very long time. [01:17:55] And during that same meeting, [01:17:57] the session they talked about do's and don'ts in CRAs, [01:18:00] it seemed like they've really emphasized programs. [01:18:03] I think some of our South Florida folks [01:18:04] ran different kind of festivals and events and so forth. [01:18:07] And that seemed way out of bounds. [01:18:10] And they spent a lot of time on talking on that. [01:18:13] But so to bring it back down, [01:18:15] maybe examples to hear in New Port Richey. [01:18:17] So I'll start with one. [01:18:19] That is nothing too major, [01:18:22] but just maybe get the ball rolling here a little bit, [01:18:25] is that we have this historic downtown. [01:18:28] You've had a chance to see it. [01:18:30] And one of the historic buildings we have, [01:18:33] we have a theater in place, right? [01:18:34] And it's kind of floundered for a long period of time. [01:18:40] Operation is somewhat and became not necessarily [01:18:44] kept up to the time and so forth. [01:18:46] There's recently been, and it's owned by a nonprofit. [01:18:50] And it's recently, they've had a change in boards [01:18:53] and directors and membership there. [01:18:57] And we think that, or at least I think, [01:19:00] that they really have it going. [01:19:03] It turned out all kinds of different new productions [01:19:06] they're planning and they keep getting better and better. [01:19:10] But so for example, but they need some, [01:19:14] and I also view it as something that is desirable [01:19:16] to bring people to New Port Richey, [01:19:19] bring business and more people to move in. [01:19:21] It's one of those attract, right? [01:19:24] And so, but they need a little help, [01:19:26] whether it's air conditionings or whatever, [01:19:28] they need some funding. [01:19:29] So we're trying to figure out how we might be able [01:19:31] to assist those folks. [01:19:34] Again, it's a nonprofit. [01:19:35] We just know it's hard for us to run just right. [01:19:37] Is the building owned by the nonprofit? [01:19:39] Yes. [01:19:40] Okay. [01:19:41] So let me make a suggestion. [01:19:44] And if people start shooting me dagger at eyes, [01:19:47] then I know I've stepped on somebody's toes [01:19:49] without intending. [01:19:51] But here is what happens in other places [01:19:54] that might be an idea for you. [01:19:56] One of the things you could clearly do with CRA money [01:19:59] is acquire property within the CRA, [01:20:00] including existing buildings. [01:20:02] So, well, it's already owned by somebody. [01:20:04] Well, yes. [01:20:05] But in order for you to do the kinds of improvements [01:20:07] that you're telling me that they need internal, [01:20:10] like AC and all those things as opposed to external, [01:20:14] in my opinion, which others might disagree with, [01:20:16] you'd need to own the building. [01:20:18] So how does that work? [01:20:19] Let me tell you how it looks in other places. [01:20:22] Again, going back to Maitland, [01:20:24] because they've got several examples there of this. [01:20:27] We own the building that is [01:20:29] the Maitland Arts and Historical Center. [01:20:31] It is run by the Maitland Arts and Historical Society. [01:20:36] They have a, I think it's a dollar a year lease from us. [01:20:40] It allows us to do the things that they can't afford to do, [01:20:43] but it allows them to provide the program that we love. [01:20:48] I say we, I'm speaking now for the city. [01:20:51] And that's not uncommon. [01:20:54] A good example in another town [01:20:56] that I am the city attorney or town attorney for [01:20:57] is Ponce Inlet. [01:20:58] There, the most famous structure in the town, [01:21:00] if you've ever been to Ponce Inlet, is a lighthouse, [01:21:03] because it's one of the oldest historical lighthouses [01:21:05] in the state of Florida. [01:21:07] And although lighthouses are not as necessary, [01:21:09] they are cool to look at. [01:21:10] So it is the town's emblem. [01:21:12] You'll see it on mugs and everything else. [01:21:14] It is owned by the town. [01:21:15] It is not run by the town, [01:21:17] but it is maintained by the town [01:21:18] with the help of the volunteers [01:21:20] who are part of the Ponce Inlet Lighthouse Association [01:21:24] or whatever they're called. [01:21:26] And on and on. [01:21:27] So there are a number of examples [01:21:29] of buildings that are owned by the government [01:21:31] that are run by the nonprofits [01:21:33] to address exactly the situation you're talking about. [01:21:35] So if that would work, that's a possible solution. [01:21:39] On those type projects and so forth, [01:21:41] whereas owned by the city, [01:21:45] does the city actually then also have to maintain that [01:21:48] and so forth? [01:21:49] Depends on what they negotiate with the lease. [01:21:50] And of course, if you own the building, [01:21:51] you have a lot of negotiating authority. [01:21:53] But again, the cautionary tale [01:21:57] for all of these operations, [01:21:58] and I've just touched on a couple of them, [01:22:01] there's a lot more I could name. [01:22:03] But what you should know is [01:22:06] there needs to be a definite understanding [01:22:08] by the people in the nonprofit, [01:22:10] as well as the city, [01:22:11] about who actually owns the building. [01:22:13] One of the problems in this arrangement [01:22:15] that needs disclosure [01:22:17] is that there's kind of a, [01:22:20] you owe it to us to let us do what the heck we want, [01:22:23] but it's still a public building. [01:22:24] Now, there are lots of public benefits [01:22:27] from the buildings that I mentioned. [01:22:28] The biggest tourist attraction in Ponce Inlet [01:22:31] is the lighthouse. [01:22:34] Maybe not the biggest, [01:22:34] but one of the things that brings the most people [01:22:36] to Maitland from other places [01:22:38] is to go to the Maitland Art and Historical [01:22:39] and see all the various artworks. [01:22:41] And they have bars and some residents, [01:22:42] and they have programs they put on [01:22:44] for kids how to paint and do it. [01:22:45] They do a lot of different stuff. [01:22:48] We have a Maitland Public Library. [01:22:50] It's literally not a county library. [01:22:52] It's ours. [01:22:53] We own the building. [01:22:54] It's run by the Maitland Library Association, [01:22:57] or whatever they call themselves. [01:22:59] And so, but there can be, and frequently is, [01:23:04] if people forget, this idea that, [01:23:07] I don't care if you own the building, it's ours. [01:23:09] No. [01:23:10] So there has to be a clear delineation of, [01:23:12] no, it's ours, this is what our agreement is, [01:23:15] and the political will to stick with that plan. [01:23:20] But as long as everybody's on the same page to start with, [01:23:22] you can get the program, [01:23:23] you can have it run by the people that you want it run by [01:23:26] who have the ability, the expertise, and the willingness, [01:23:29] as long as they understand, and this is important, [01:23:32] sunshine law and public records. [01:23:34] If they're willing to divide by those things, [01:23:36] there are a lot of things that you can do [01:23:38] and can use CRA money to do it with [01:23:41] that will get you in a position to do things [01:23:45] that you couldn't otherwise. [01:23:46] Like if they said, we'd like a donation [01:23:47] so we can replace HVAC. [01:23:49] That, confidently, I can say, no. [01:23:54] So can the CRA actually own the building? [01:23:57] Yes. [01:23:58] Now, let me be also clear that some CRAs choose [01:24:02] to have the ownership transferred to the city, [01:24:04] but it's not required. [01:24:07] At the end of the CRA term, it does go back. [01:24:09] Correct, it would automatically do that [01:24:11] when the CRA is terminated. [01:24:13] Can we explore that a little bit further, just real quick? [01:24:16] So one of the gotchas with community redevelopment [01:24:20] is making sure you dispose of the property [01:24:22] pursuant to Florida statutes 163.380. [01:24:25] So when the agency is disposing of the asset to the city, [01:24:28] in this case, the city, is there any special process? [01:24:30] Does it still have to advertise in the same way? [01:24:33] Or can it just be a effective transfer of the asset? [01:24:37] Yes, in that, I think, I will double-check this, [01:24:40] but I'm pretty sure that is an exception to the 163.380. [01:24:43] That notice section, which I actually, [01:24:46] I was mentioning to the folks yesterday, [01:24:47] I had spent a ton of time on the phone, [01:24:49] phone call after phone call after phone call. [01:24:51] One of the longest calls was about having to fix a problem, [01:24:55] instead of using the 163.380 notice, [01:25:01] which is required for disposition [01:25:02] of all property within a CRA, [01:25:04] meaning if you're selling it, leasing it, [01:25:05] whatever you're doing. [01:25:07] Imagine an RFP, imagine we had a piece of property [01:25:09] and we're gonna go out to request a proposal [01:25:11] and solicit private development proposals. [01:25:13] We would have to do this notice, 100%. [01:25:15] Minimum of 30 days can be longer. [01:25:17] What the other city had done [01:25:20] is that they had used a regular RFP process, [01:25:23] but not one that was consistent with 163.380. [01:25:25] They'd already awarded it to a developer, [01:25:27] and then we became the city attorney, [01:25:30] and they said, you know, this is what we wanna do. [01:25:32] We want you to draft the agreement. [01:25:33] And he said, well, did you have the notice done? [01:25:35] Was just assumed, what notice? [01:25:37] So now we're trying to go back and do surgery [01:25:41] to fix what they did incorrectly [01:25:44] by getting a notice out there, [01:25:45] but a notice that is so specific [01:25:47] that the developer that they've already [01:25:49] want to do business with [01:25:50] will be the only one who will respond to the notice, [01:25:53] which may seem like reverse engineering, [01:25:55] but sometimes this is what needs to be done. [01:25:57] And let me be clear, that's not a questionable practice. [01:26:00] That is a completely legal practice, [01:26:02] and one that I would advise you to do on the front side. [01:26:05] In other words, if you know a developer [01:26:07] you wanna do business with because of their track record, [01:26:09] because if they do the kind of development you want, [01:26:11] or they have the specific expertise [01:26:13] that you're looking for, [01:26:14] how you get that person, [01:26:16] if they're willing to do business with you, [01:26:18] is you craft a notice where at the end of the day, [01:26:20] they're probably the only ones [01:26:22] who are able to respond. [01:26:23] That is legal. [01:26:25] There's nothing in the statute that says you cannot do that, [01:26:27] and I have seen it done multiple times. [01:26:30] I've done it multiple times. [01:26:32] You just gotta cover your bases with the advertised notice. [01:26:35] Would you do the same type of thing in the theater? [01:26:38] If we went ahead and bought that under the CRA, [01:26:41] could we contract it at the end of the CRA's life [01:26:45] that it would become part of the city [01:26:46] and so we wouldn't have to? [01:26:48] Well, that's exactly why I wanna go back, [01:26:51] because you might make the argument [01:26:52] to do it before the end of life, [01:26:54] because there's also a provision of statute [01:26:56] that says if you give it for less than market value, [01:26:59] the governing body, as in the city council in this case, [01:27:01] has to approve it anyways. [01:27:03] So you actually simplify life, [01:27:06] if it's copacetic, if it meets the needs of statute. [01:27:09] If we create a policy where, [01:27:11] hey, when we acquire property as the agency, [01:27:14] we're gonna turn it over to the city [01:27:16] for maintenance and long-term ownership. [01:27:19] Because remember, we're a dependent special district. [01:27:22] You know, we're throwing all these terms at you. [01:27:24] I know it's alphabet soup. [01:27:25] But in addition to being a CRA, [01:27:27] a CRA is also a special district under Chapter 189, [01:27:30] and we're a dependent special district. [01:27:32] And so at the end of the day, [01:27:33] you know the agency's gonna sunset in 2049, [01:27:36] and the city's gonna be the one left holding all the assets. [01:27:39] And that can be drawn, just like Greg said, [01:27:42] right into the way that you were to take title. [01:27:45] You could take title with a deed restriction [01:27:49] for a period of years, and then automatically go to, [01:27:52] there's a number of different ways [01:27:53] to legally construct that process. [01:27:55] Yeah, I just wanted to eliminate this whole, [01:27:59] putting it out to bid, you know. [01:28:01] There was an important point to something you said [01:28:05] related to all this, which was facades, exterior improvements, [01:28:09] signage, grants, those sorts of things. [01:28:13] Talk about leasehold improvements [01:28:15] that are paid by the CRA [01:28:17] for the leasehold improvements [01:28:20] of a renter of a private property. [01:28:22] Is that kind of, are you anxious about that? [01:28:25] Because- [01:28:27] I'm not anxious if they are a part [01:28:30] of what is required to meet the goals of the plan, [01:28:34] and they are things that could obviously [01:28:37] affect solving the plan. [01:28:38] It is hard to say, for example, [01:28:40] although I would be willing, [01:28:42] this is one of those where I would say, [01:28:44] I will defend you, but I wouldn't recommend. [01:28:47] So this is what the category, [01:28:48] so on the, some building needs a new HVAC. [01:28:52] Well, if you own it, no problem. [01:28:54] Somebody else owns it, potential problem. [01:28:56] But if it's an exterior, and somebody leases it, [01:28:59] right, because it affects everybody else in the district, [01:29:03] and that's the difference. [01:29:04] Critical, if I may follow up with that, [01:29:07] let's talk about the theater. [01:29:08] It's an ongoing issue. [01:29:11] We're at the point of doing our CRA plan, [01:29:13] so plan, budgeted, in the district. [01:29:20] A big community asset, like the lighthouse, [01:29:22] like anything else that you mentioned. [01:29:26] So if it's in the plan, we'd have to get it into a budget. [01:29:31] If we did that, identifying that it was a targeted [01:29:35] need for us to allow for that asset to be maintained. [01:29:41] In theory, you wouldn't say no. [01:29:44] You probably would prefer we own it, [01:29:46] but if it's not owned by us, we're not, [01:29:48] we can't force them to sell it to us, [01:29:49] and if we feel it's important, and it comes back, [01:29:52] we'll have to talk about it, but. [01:29:56] It always depends on. [01:30:00] the willingness of those who are currently in control to see the benefits of relinquishing [01:30:05] some control in exchange for some tangible benefits. [01:30:08] They could sleep at night, for one thing, with the budget that they need in repairs. [01:30:14] Right. [01:30:15] Now, I will say this, not because I think it's something that you need to be concerned [01:30:19] about now, but it's something that you will hear from others. [01:30:22] When you start mentioning Sunshine Public Records, some people lose their minds. [01:30:27] Others have said, as, for example, Maitland Arts & Historical initially said, well, if [01:30:33] we have to do all that stuff, then, you know, we're going to lose board members because [01:30:36] they won't want to do all of that. [01:30:38] And that may be true, or we may lose private donors who want to be private and not public, [01:30:42] and they can't be private if they're a part of something that is governmentally supported. [01:30:47] There's a test called the Schwab Factors Test, and without going into a great detail, Schwab [01:30:54] is the name of a case. [01:30:56] What it stands for is the proposition that even a non-profit, depending on certain factors, [01:31:02] like is it providing a government service, how much money of its support comes from the [01:31:06] government, et cetera, and if you meet enough of these factors, you can be kicked over into [01:31:11] the, you are now automatically subject to Sunshine and public records law. [01:31:15] And so my default position is, if your building is being paid for, and you're only paying [01:31:20] a dollar in rent for it, and you're providing something that is arguably a public service, [01:31:25] then you might well find yourself on the wrong side of the Schwab Factors and have to comply [01:31:30] with Sunshine and public records. [01:31:31] And if you do find yourself in that situation and you don't comply, then just like any one [01:31:36] of you would be, you're subject to, and I'm not kidding here, arrest. [01:31:41] It is a crime not to comply. [01:31:43] And that scares people. [01:31:45] And so this is something that they would obviously want to discuss and figure out, can they function [01:31:49] in that environment? [01:31:50] And sometimes they will tell you we can't, and sometimes they will say, we'll put on [01:31:54] our big boy pants and we'll do it. [01:31:57] But this is something, a discussion that you will definitely have. [01:32:00] But you're a 501c3, so pretty much a lot of it's on public record anyhow. [01:32:05] Some of it is, but for example, 501c3s don't have to have open meetings. [01:32:11] And that's a big deal. [01:32:12] And 501c3s, if she and I are on the same board, I can walk out of here and talk to her about [01:32:18] the business we just had. [01:32:19] But if we're a public entity from the standpoint of Sunshine, we can't discuss it except here. [01:32:24] That's the difference. [01:32:25] Tell me, being a realtor, just real quick, I'm going to summarize some comments you had [01:32:32] about back to Chopper's conversation about the rentals and the history of our city. [01:32:39] A lot of it was duplexes in these communities with the idea that the duplex would give us [01:32:44] more profit, more tax money, because there wouldn't be homestead exemptions. [01:32:49] And so we had a proliferation of these very inexpensive duplexes. [01:32:53] Yes, they got passed away through, passed away through people passing away, and a lot [01:32:59] of amateur renter, amateur, you know, non-on-property land loans. [01:33:08] So that has been an issue. [01:33:10] But back to Kelly, who has reported to us the values in the city, which did drop by [01:33:15] 50 percent in that 2007 time frame to 12, which put us in the hole. [01:33:22] But now have really just been skyrocketing, not only just with the general economy, but [01:33:28] also our own city, because it is flourishing. [01:33:33] So those points, I'll just make a comment. [01:33:37] Maintenance of CRA assets that you mentioned, if you build it and it's yours and it's an [01:33:43] enhancement over what you would normally build in that community, then it would seem [01:33:47] to me the maintenance of high-end lighting or those kind of things could be acceptable [01:33:55] to be continued on. [01:33:56] Or it is, at least by practice, a lot. [01:33:57] Certainly in the life of the CRA. [01:33:58] During the life of the CRA. [01:33:59] So the idea that you can't maintain those assets would be, the caveat might be, if they [01:34:07] would have otherwise been part of the city as to your other discussion that you mentioned [01:34:12] earlier. [01:34:13] If it's something you normally do, it's the difference between what you would normally [01:34:17] do. [01:34:18] And that leads me to my final comment, which was to your trust fund. [01:34:21] And my father having been an attorney, and me having a sense of a trust fund, and what [01:34:27] always misses from these discussions is the importance of a finance department in the [01:34:33] back row back there who has to prepare for the audit, which the law requires now the [01:34:39] single audit on the CRAs, which goes back to the legality, not from that channel you [01:34:46] were talking about, but from audit findings and the audit being provided to the Auditor [01:34:51] General's office and all those sorts of things. [01:34:54] So to the audit question and the trust fund question, something I encountered was the [01:35:00] idea of a trust fund to me from working in the law office briefly was, as you say, sacred [01:35:06] money, thinking it needed to be in a separate, physical separate bank account to which the [01:35:13] auditors can say, no, it can be in pooled cash, and you can just make a journal entry [01:35:19] to put that money over there, in the sense that you treat it as trust fund money, but [01:35:25] to your point, as an attorney, you have to actually have it in a trust fund. [01:35:30] So when you call this a trust fund, would you argue that you should put it in a separate fund? [01:35:36] Well, I will tell you, I won't say that most of our clients do. [01:35:41] I would be willing to bet that most, if not a hundred percent, do, just because it's [01:35:48] easier for them than in pooled cash. [01:35:52] But I don't know that for a fact, so I don't want to get myself on that. [01:35:55] So I think I've been told by auditors it's okay to be in pooled cash. [01:35:59] So I always worried about it because I had seen attorneys get in a lot of trouble for [01:36:04] the trust fund. [01:36:05] Attorneys, you'd lose your license for that. [01:36:07] Because no mingling, it's intermingling. [01:36:10] Even if you're not misspending, the intermingling is the issue. [01:36:13] And so I will not ever say that I'm an auditor, nor did I say in the Holiday Inn Express last night. [01:36:20] So what I will tell you is, though, not all auditors are created equal. [01:36:25] And particularly that is true when it comes to CRAs. [01:36:28] Claiming that you can do a CRA audit and actually understanding what that means are not the same. [01:36:34] And so before I would let anybody audit my CRA, if I hadn't already vetted them that [01:36:40] this is what they've done, and they've done it for X number of CRAs, and I've checked [01:36:44] the references, and nobody's gotten in any trouble, that would be something I would look [01:36:48] hard at because they are a different animal. [01:36:51] Just to go back again about the sunshine and all that. [01:36:57] Sure. [01:36:58] So we own a property and lease it out for fair market value. [01:37:02] Yes. [01:37:03] Then there's not... [01:37:04] No. [01:37:05] Well, because that way you're not subsidizing them. [01:37:07] But it's not just one factor. [01:37:10] That's a big factor, but it's not the only one. [01:37:12] Are they providing a government service? [01:37:13] Here's an example. [01:37:14] I've already mentioned the Maitland Library. [01:37:16] Well, for a lot of folks, a library would be considered a government service. [01:37:20] So even though they existed before we came along and sort of jumped into the library [01:37:27] business, they could have, in theory, functioned without us, except they were broke. [01:37:32] And our citizens wanted the library. [01:37:35] And it's clearly something that you would consider, generally speaking, a government [01:37:39] service, not a private service. [01:37:41] So once we got to the point where we were the ones who owned the building and they weren't [01:37:46] paying rent other than like a dollar a year or whatever it is, their board members had [01:37:53] to become and be ready to become public and comply with Sunshine and public records and [01:37:57] all that stuff. [01:37:58] And it was either that or not have a library. [01:38:00] Well, the good news for them, and this is, I mean, assuming it passes, we'll see it in [01:38:04] March, is that they have become so popular that we are now floating a bond referendum [01:38:10] of $19 million that will be on the March ballot to build them a brand new library. [01:38:15] Our building, their operation, as long as they follow our rules. [01:38:21] It's going to be out of a bond if, well, the bond, yes, yes, and I think we're supplementing, [01:38:28] I think we have somewhere between $4 and $6 million that is already available money that [01:38:32] we have, but the balance of that is going to be from the referendum if it passes. [01:38:37] Do you have something else you want to go on? [01:38:47] I would just say, and this may be something that maybe you can't answer just specifically [01:38:52] as far as RCR passed or current, is there anything that you've noticed that you would [01:38:58] tweak or do a little differently moving forward? [01:39:01] You know, I tend to have to speak because I don't have the specifics of your CRA in [01:39:07] more general terms, so some of the things that I'm going to tell you now are themes [01:39:13] that you've already heard me say. [01:39:15] Of all of the things that you've heard me say other than stay within the lines and follow [01:39:19] the statute, there's a lot of things you can't do, you can do, focus on what you can do, [01:39:23] not what is illegal, try to stay out of the margins if you want to stay out of trouble. [01:39:27] All of those things would apply regardless of who you are, but one that you've heard [01:39:33] me say, and it might even be the point of irritation, but I have to say it so often [01:39:38] because it just gets missed, particularly at the political level. [01:39:42] You cannot control the market. [01:39:46] You're just not that big. [01:39:49] So what you can do is decide where what the market is telling you is something you want. [01:39:53] Focus on that. [01:39:55] Don't try to say, build this here if it doesn't work because nobody wants a project [01:40:01] that you made to get billed and it goes broke. [01:40:05] That's not a good look. [01:40:07] And so the reason that's such an important thing in my mind when someone says, what's [01:40:10] the one piece of advice you would give a CRA after all the legal stuff? [01:40:14] It's that because it's the thing that gets violated the most. [01:40:18] I don't know what any of you all did before you became elected officials. [01:40:24] We're not living off this. [01:40:26] I'm confident that that's true. [01:40:28] And the reason I go there is because, and I say this, please do not take this as any [01:40:34] sign of disrespect. [01:40:36] I represent cities and governments all over the place. [01:40:40] But the job of being, whether it's a councilman, state representative, senator, fill in the [01:40:47] blank, is one of the few jobs that I can think of where people run on the idea that they [01:40:53] have experience when they actually have none. [01:40:57] By that I mean, before you took a government seat, did you know how to do a government [01:41:03] audit work? [01:41:04] Before you took a government seat, did you understand the restrictions on what you could [01:41:08] and couldn't say and where you could say it regarding Sunshine Law? [01:41:11] Before you took a government seat, did you understand that every piece of paper you now [01:41:14] create that has to do with government business is a public record? [01:41:17] Before you took a government seat, as you now sit in, did you know that people who send [01:41:21] you emails now that are about government business are not private? [01:41:24] They are public. [01:41:26] And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what all public officials don't know. [01:41:32] So, in a word, don't get out over your skis. [01:41:37] When people come to you as experts that you trust, pay attention. [01:41:41] When developers who are clearly motivated by money and not losing money are telling [01:41:46] you this is what's working in the market, believe them and then like it or don't like [01:41:50] it. [01:41:51] But don't try to tell them, no, no, no, I know better than you, unless you just happen [01:41:54] to be in the real estate development business, in which case maybe you do know better. [01:41:58] But that's an important concept that gets way overlooked in this whole idea of redevelopment. [01:42:03] Because, ultimately, the market will win. [01:42:06] You can't beat it. [01:42:07] It's like trying to beat the house at gambling, except on certain games where you can count [01:42:10] cards, which I can't do. [01:42:12] So, with that as the precursor, that's what I would tell you. [01:42:19] React to say, we don't want this, so we'll wait. [01:42:23] But don't say, we know better, because you probably don't. [01:42:30] I was going to say the same thing. [01:42:33] I get investors and developers who call me all the time for property. [01:42:36] And when they're looking in a specific area, they already know exactly what they want to [01:42:39] put there, because they know what's going to make them money there. [01:42:42] And I have recently had conversations with W2 investors and developers who have come to [01:42:48] me wanting to get in the city, and that's all their whole goal was, to get something [01:42:51] in the city. [01:42:52] So, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot of investors and developers looking to [01:42:56] put something here. [01:42:58] And I think that we just have to look carefully, take into consideration what they want to [01:43:02] put here, but also what we want to see in our plan. [01:43:05] Because, although they know they can come in and make money, that might not be what [01:43:09] we want to see in our plan. [01:43:10] Right. [01:43:11] That should be the focus. [01:43:12] Yes. [01:43:13] And so, that's the thing, is we have a lot of investors who want to invest here, and [01:43:15] we have a lot of developers who want to develop here, but it might not be in our plan. [01:43:19] And that was the main thing that I wrote down, because we do have, and then the same with [01:43:23] the renters, too. [01:43:24] You know, my goal is to turn our 45% renters into all buyers, right. [01:43:28] There's a lot more programs out available now for renters, too. [01:43:32] And we're teaching educational programs to get some of our renters into home ownership. [01:43:37] There's a lot of programs for home ownership now. [01:43:40] Interest rates are coming back down. [01:43:42] Housing prices have stabilized. [01:43:44] There's a lot of things changing right now, and the goal is to get some of our renters [01:43:48] who are here. [01:43:49] A lot of people move into this, our town, to see if they like it. [01:43:53] To see, where do I want to live? [01:43:54] So, let me just rent for a year or two and figure out where I want to buy. [01:43:58] And that happens quite often, too. [01:44:00] So, they come and they rent. [01:44:01] So, the goal is to show them we have such a great city that this is where they decide [01:44:05] that they want to buy. [01:44:08] The problem we have here is that so many of our properties that are rentals were bought [01:44:12] at such a discounted rate that, you know, they're not going to sell. [01:44:20] The rents have gone up, right? [01:44:23] Yeah, the owners don't want to sell because they're making more renting it than they're [01:44:26] going to sell it. [01:44:30] But the city at large is improving, and one thing I'd like to say as a final comment [01:44:34] was something that you did say that is not counter to the developers will do what they're [01:44:41] going to do and the market will control is there are some things we do control and we [01:44:45] do control the plan. [01:44:47] And within that plan, when they take that quality of life side to it, there are certain [01:44:52] elements that we feel enhance both and benefit the residents of our city and will add to [01:45:00] the appeal for more people to want to invest and so the Highway 19 and Main [01:45:05] Street is a good example I think we have a large grant it could go south if it [01:45:10] was designed as a giant stormwater pond instead of something that was unique and [01:45:15] well designed and thought through so I like to just end by saying to me in our [01:45:21] capacity here not as City Council members at all but just in this capacity [01:45:25] we are developers and we're developers of the lands that we pick to get the [01:45:31] tenants that we want in the buildings that we own and from what I've heard [01:45:36] today that's one special little opportunity we have before we just sell [01:45:44] some of those key assets on the other hand Main and 19 is not a key asset [01:45:51] that's a chance for some density a chance for some development and a chance [01:45:55] to get our money back that we've invested in that so it I think as we [01:45:59] think as developers that you've given us some good guidance and I appreciate your [01:46:04] I really appreciate your time and your sharing and appreciate Greg being here [01:46:09] and I'll be for putting this together and you all for attending thank you yes [01:46:34] and mr. chair Debbie asked me to the manager asked me to she asked me what [01:46:42] the time was and I built a watch so that packet that you have in that PowerPoint [01:46:46] presentation that is really the nitty-gritty and the ins and outs and [01:46:50] let's get as nerdy and geeky as you as you want to get the managers in this [01:46:55] case the executive director is actually going to include that as part of her [01:46:57] weekly Friday a report that she does to you so the digital version of that will [01:47:03] be there and in the future we can have in-depth subject matter workshops that [01:47:10] you'd like to have and I'm willing to go there as far as you want but at the end [01:47:14] of the day you know I'm a recovering elected official give me a mic I might [01:47:18] have a relapse but we have to deal with complicated loss we do but it's our job [01:47:26] to boil them down to and help people understand them help our people [01:47:30] understand them so from the standpoint of economic development if I could leave [01:47:33] you with a thought our jobs to support innovation job creation and private [01:47:39] development it's really that simple you just boil it that big complicated thing [01:47:43] down to innovation job creation and private development and not just any job [01:47:49] creation ideally we're gonna create jobs that pay more than our current median [01:47:53] wage because we're building a stairway to a better future we are trying to be [01:47:58] prosperous we are trying to not just pursue but capture the you know happiness [01:48:03] the pursuit of happiness we're trying to capture happiness and that's and that's [01:48:07] how communities can get there so that's really important in the private [01:48:11] development it's not just any private development it's the development that's [01:48:14] consistent with your future so real quick I want to follow up on an issue [01:48:18] that was raised and then I want to have the bringing it all together so the [01:48:22] issue that was raised that get into the weeds on how things are accounted for so [01:48:27] there's about 412 cities in the state if we checked the special district [01:48:31] records within the state of Florida we'd find that there's probably about 220 [01:48:35] community redevelopment agencies of those 220 a supermajority it's gonna be [01:48:40] a dependent special district like us where you have a board that is the exact [01:48:44] same body or substantially the same as the governing body what do I mean by [01:48:48] that I mean the City Council the City Commission and the County Commission as [01:48:51] the case may be if we all of them are required to do a comprehensive annual [01:48:55] financial report if we looked at all of those cappers of that group we would [01:49:00] find that they are considered blended component units of the governing body of [01:49:07] the city and that they are most likely accounting for the funds within a [01:49:11] separate fund number on the operating side and a separate fund number for the [01:49:17] capital so depending on the city and in the system if they've gone to the new [01:49:21] system yet they might have like a 187 fund and then a 387 fund and and we're [01:49:27] gonna find that that's that's the common practice that it's a blended component [01:49:31] unit it's treated as a special revenue fund I'm sure that miss Dunn or or miss [01:49:36] man's could you know bring you through through it all so that's that's closing [01:49:41] out that item but Cliff gave us a lot of good information the one thing I would [01:49:46] ask us to walk away with if there was just if there's if there could be only [01:49:51] one it'd be the idea that Cliff said start with an idea when he gave you [01:49:56] advice on what your community redevelopment plan should be he said [01:50:00] start with an idea and I would say the same thing thank can I call you chopper [01:50:07] here you want to be called chopper chopper members of the board miss man's [01:50:12] you are completing your first hundred years as a city as a community and [01:50:18] really over the last ten you've had a renaissance where you've really become [01:50:23] something special what are we going to be in the next hundred years let us [01:50:29] chart a course for that and that should be articulated in a statement of our [01:50:34] ideal future state our vision for our future and as the new guy here one of [01:50:40] our opportunities is to articulate that vision not in three pages not in three [01:50:46] words but Goldilocks just right is it that we're going to be the best [01:50:52] waterfront walkable historic hometown in Florida I don't know it's for you and [01:50:57] the people to decide but we should be able to articulate that that should be [01:51:01] the centerpiece of our community redevelopment plan and then our program [01:51:06] should have the flexibility to help you bring that to life because at the end of [01:51:10] the day that's your mission your vision is where we're going your mission is to [01:51:15] make it happen so madam madam manager executive director and the board let's [01:51:21] make it happen [01:51:40] my pleasure anything else good of the then we'll go ahead and adjourn

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3. 3Communications
4. 4Adjournment