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   2023 Main Street Downtown Corridor Level of Service (LOS) Traffic Study

   discussed

   David Fleeman of Florida Design Consultants presented the 2023 Main Street Downtown Corridor Level of Service Traffic Study, which analyzed traffic flow from Madison Street to U.S. 19 and recommended signal timing adjustments to optimize the corridor as a whole rather than individual intersections. Council discussed the tension between vehicle efficiency and pedestrian friendliness, with concerns raised about lights at Bank and Grand stopping traffic unnecessarily. The report has been submitted to Pasco County, which is reviewing it and expected to implement signal timing changes within a couple of weeks.

   • direction:Council received the traffic study and supported allowing Pasco County to implement the recommended signal timing adjustments, particularly at Grand Boulevard lights. (none)

   📍Main Street and Adams Street📍Main Street and Bank Street📍Main Street and Grand Boulevard📍Main Street and Madison Street📍Main Street and River Road📍Main Street and U.S. Highway 19🏢Florida DOT🏢Florida Design Consultants🏢Pasco County🏢Waffle House👤David Fleeman👤Mr. Allman👤Ms. Manson👤Robert👤Wada Farah#2023 Main Street Downtown Corridor Level of Service (LOS) Traffic Study#Alley Management Plan#Community Redevelopment Plan#Downtown Parking Implementation Study#Downtown Parking Utilization Study#Madison Street Traffic Analysis#Main Street road diet (late 1990s)#Pavement Management Plan#Roadway Needs Assessment

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   [00:00:11] First item is the Main Street Downtown Corridor Level of Service Traffic Study. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. [00:00:21] The study was commissioned with Florida Design Consultants and we have David Fleeman with us tonight to present to you the study. [00:00:33] The purpose of the study was to assess traffic conditions from Madison Street on Main Street to U.S. Highway 19 because some of the development features along that roadway had changed since the time that some of the traffic control measures were put in place [00:00:59] and we wanted to make sure that there was efficient vehicle circulation as well as to make sure that we were balancing the walkability of the downtown. And so, Robert, with that, if you want to take over and further introduce the item and then we'll let Mr. Fleeman present. [00:01:25] Okay, so what we wanted to do was present this study and basically at the end there are some recommendations and conclusions, but all in all the report shows that council's policies have done a efficient job as far as blending the two vehicle and pedestrian increase of movements. [00:01:46] There's always things that you can do to improve your situations, but we feel pretty confident that what has been done up to this date, we've fared well and we have been mindful of the things that we've implemented and they appear to have worked out good. [00:02:05] We had some low-hanging fruit in the report that called out some signalizations that we could make adjustments with. The only action that we have done as of this date is to take in contact Pasco County, as you're aware, they are the ones that handle the traffic operations and maintenance within the county. [00:02:27] They have been in contact with us and we're looking at a couple weeks to where maybe they'll make those adjustments to where maybe we can react to those, but we can start off at this point. [00:02:38] They were at the Grand Boulevard lights. [00:02:39] Okay. [00:02:40] Okay. [00:02:41] And with that, like Ms. Manson said, I wanted to introduce David Fleeman. [00:02:46] He is with Florida Design Consultants. [00:02:48] They are a local firm. [00:02:50] He's the Vice President Director of Engineering. [00:02:53] He is very familiar with the city. [00:02:56] You may recall that he has worked with us on the Pavement Management Plan, the Roadway Needs Assessment, the Alley Management Plan, Madison Street Traffic Analysis with the improvements that we have performed there, as well as the Downtown Parking Implementation Study and the Downtown Parking Utilization Study. [00:03:17] And so David is real familiar with these types of tasks that we assign him. [00:03:23] And so with that, I'll turn it over to David. [00:03:25] Thank you. [00:03:27] As Robert mentioned, we were engaged to evaluate the traffic within the Main Street corridor between Madison and US-19. [00:03:43] So the steps in doing that analysis begins with doing data collection at each of the intersections of the turning movements and the through movements and feeding that into a computer model. [00:04:01] And the computer model is able to then forecast delays and level of service. [00:04:11] So the model compares existing and proposed conditions. [00:04:14] So step one is to build an existing condition model that mimics what's happening today. [00:04:18] And because your experience traveling through an intersection could be somewhat subjective, in the engineering world, we use level of service and delay, which measures the time difference between ideal travel time and what your realized travel time through an intersection is. [00:04:38] And you can then calculate that and compare intersections and compare segments of roadway to one another more subjectively or objectively, pardon me. [00:04:51] So as an example, two people that are accustomed to driving in two different environments, maybe a rural or an urban, would have a different perception of a delay. [00:05:00] And this helps eliminate that bias. [00:05:02] So the signalized intersection level of service is measured in terms of the average delay of all the movements through the intersection. [00:05:12] So you look at not just the delay on Main Street, but you factor in the delay on the side streets as well when you're factoring in the delay for a intersection. [00:05:23] So after creating the model, crunching the numbers, we established that the level of service at the existing conditions intersections starting at Main Street and working to, I'm sorry, starting at U.S. 19 and working to Madison had a level of service E at Main Street and U.S. 19. [00:05:48] River and Bank both had level of service C. Grand had E. And then it was A's and C's on Main Street and Adams. And then Madison had level of service D. [00:06:03] David, can you explain to them the alphabet? [00:06:06] Yes. So A is a intersection driving condition that is not experiencing any delay. [00:06:15] You're basically driving at whatever speed that feels comfortable to you that's within the speed limit. [00:06:22] As you get to level of service B, you start encountering a little bit of traffic that starts to slow you down. [00:06:27] And as you progress through to level of service D and E, your speed is controlled exclusively by the amount of delay in the cars and the congestion all around you. [00:06:40] So it goes from A to E. Actually, F. F is off the end of the chart. [00:06:47] So in the second column where the existing level of service is, you can see the delay in seconds is also summarized there. [00:06:57] And the next step was to build a model that tried to optimize the traffic flow through the series of intersections. [00:07:11] So because the travel through the corridor forces you to go through a series of intersections, [00:07:20] you can't just optimize one intersection by itself as a freestanding entity and have an optimized corridor, [00:07:31] which may be what was done previously. Each intersection may have been optimized just for itself. [00:07:38] This looked at a corridor approach. [00:07:41] So for example, in River Road, we actually slowed down and increased the delay from 25.5 seconds to 26.2 seconds. [00:07:55] But in doing that, that allowed the entire corridor to travel faster. [00:08:00] And your delay at Madison went from 42.4 to 28.8. [00:08:07] So you speed up some intersections and slow down others in order to get a cumulative total that is optimized and as fast, effectively, as possible. [00:08:18] And that's what the signal timing that was provided to the city and the city provided to the county is based on. [00:08:25] It's based on optimizing the entire corridor. [00:08:29] So some intersections will actually get a little bit slower, others will get noticeably faster, and the entire corridor will be net improved. [00:08:41] So considerations to consider when evaluating additional improvements. [00:08:51] This was kind of, as Robert indicated, the low-hanging fruit. [00:08:55] Additional improvements need to be evaluated, understanding that there's some tension between making a corridor high-speed, [00:09:07] super-efficient for vehicles is going to have negative impacts on pedestrian. [00:09:13] And the optimum pedestrian corridor has no vehicles. [00:09:16] So there's clearly a tension between the two, and trying to find the right balance is the challenge. [00:09:24] I wouldn't recommend any radical changes because I think we have got pretty close to an ideal balance now. [00:09:36] If you improve the level of service too much, you'll start attracting traffic from the phone-based navigation apps. [00:09:46] You'll start showing this as a super-efficient way to get across the river, and all of a sudden you're going to start attracting cut-through traffic at the extreme. [00:09:59] And another thing to consider or be reminded of is Main Street previously underwent a road diet in the late 90s to add on street parking and to add pedestrian facilities. [00:10:11] And the City has made a concerted effort to improve pedestrian friendliness that we wouldn't want to undo without great consideration. [00:10:24] And then also just calling into remembrance the Community Redevelopment Plan, which calls for traffic calming to reduce speeds in traffic. [00:10:35] Do you have any questions? I'll be happy to... [00:10:41] Just an observation, or a couple of observations. [00:10:46] One, and Mr. Allman was on the Council at the time that the traffic calming was originally started, [00:10:56] that has been a top priority of the Council to make New Port Richey more pedestrian and bicycle-friendly. [00:11:06] And we absolutely positively do not want to increase the flow of traffic on Main Street to the detriment of pedestrians. [00:11:19] And I drive that multiple times a day. [00:11:25] It has been my experience, and I'll certainly ask my colleagues to comment as well, that the traffic lights, particularly the ones at Main and Bank and Main and Grand, are the problem. [00:11:42] They frequently stop traffic traveling on Main Street when there is absolutely nobody in sight on the cross streets. [00:11:51] It's almost daily I see it. [00:11:55] And I know they're supposed to see when there's other traffic out there. [00:12:01] They've got the little cameras. I'm here to tell you they don't work. [00:12:06] We would actually improve the flow of traffic if we ditched the lights and put four-way stops in. [00:12:13] Because what happens now is you get a backup of traffic at Main and Bank going east, and then it turns green, and then it all races down to Grand Boulevard, [00:12:28] where it again comes to a dead standstill, typically filling up the entire block, while Grand is red, waiting for traffic that isn't coming north or south because there's no cars there. [00:12:40] But the light's red. [00:12:42] And then ultimately it doesn't free up until you get to Adams, where the four-way stop is actually working. [00:12:49] And it's not just once in a while, it's consistently I'm seeing that. [00:12:56] The lights are causing the problem. [00:13:00] And our modeling indicated that in some circumstances the red light, just as you described, [00:13:08] at the next light is prohibiting free flow of traffic through the intersection that precedes it. [00:13:15] And that's a function of the close spacing of the lights. [00:13:22] David, the question I had, you said the modeling for the corridor takes into account the traffic on the side streets as well, right? [00:13:34] Is that weighted? [00:13:37] I'm much like the mayor in thinking that some of the side streets on both on Grand and on Bank Street is so light that it really shouldn't be considered. [00:13:52] So I would be troubled if the model put too much emphasis on what the backup was on those side streets to the detriment of the traffic flow on Main Street. [00:14:05] Do you understand what I'm saying? [00:14:07] Yes, I believe so. [00:14:09] And the model was fed input based on traffic counts from the side streets. [00:14:14] So if very little traffic was observed, then the model would only be representing a small amount of traffic. [00:14:22] And if we back up those, we're going to be backing up fewer people than if we back up on Main Street. [00:14:27] And then the other question was, I know this is a thing now because we all use it, right, is the apps to get around. [00:14:38] And it was interesting that you said that about the phone-based apps would direct people, if we made it too nice, that everybody would want to get across the river here. [00:14:47] That might be to some people, but we don't have that many crossings on the river and they're spaced far enough away. [00:14:58] I'm not really sure that. [00:15:00] would have a major impact on Main Street, but that was interesting that you made that [00:15:09] comment. I worry a little bit about the fact of the mayor's suggestion of stop signs at [00:15:17] all the intersections. People tend to not like more stop signs. We've seen stop signs [00:15:28] around Orange Lake, which achieved our desired outcome there. But if we do flow the traffic [00:15:36] from River Road through Bank and through Grand, I worry about the back up that will be at [00:15:44] Adams at a stop sign. I know that's part of your considerations, right? Because that's [00:15:48] when all of a sudden we've got a free flow and then we had a stop sign. And we've got [00:15:53] 30 cars that flow through. That's where the back up would just maybe occur. I don't know. [00:16:05] Yeah, kind of what he's talking about. I know in other places I've seen where the lights [00:16:09] are synced with each other. Are Grand and Bank Street synced with each other or just [00:16:14] to themselves so that they're working in unison with each other to keep the traffic flowing? [00:16:22] The timing is, I don't know that they're truly interconnected, but the timing is going [00:16:29] to be adjusted so that they synchronize with one another better than they do now. [00:16:35] Right, because I mean, I don't know, like Tampa, other cities. [00:16:38] They're not talking to one another like U.S. Highway 19. That's a different technology. [00:16:43] But they are a smart system that can adjust itself in accordance with the amount of traffic [00:16:51] that is going through that it picks up. But to say that they're all talking to one another, [00:16:57] that's newer technology. That is there and it can be implemented, but when we talk syncing, [00:17:05] we're not meaning that they're talking to one another. [00:17:07] To themselves. [00:17:09] Correct. And what the existing current reads are. Like I'll give you an example. One of [00:17:15] the things that the technology that we have there now is you could have a pedestrian come [00:17:21] by and hit both of those buttons and he might hit it two or three times. We see that all [00:17:28] the time. Well, the technology that we have with that now is while that's a smart system, [00:17:35] it takes itself a few cycles to get back to where now it's starting to read everything [00:17:42] in live conditions. And so you'll have a fluctuation of level of service. You wouldn't necessarily [00:17:53] stay at a C if you're looking at it from that standpoint. [00:17:57] Right. [00:17:57] But what David is trying to express as the current conditions that you have and the adjustments [00:18:03] that they've recommended would give you the optimum efficiency when we talk about vehicles [00:18:09] mingling with pedestrians, etc. There's no system that's perfect. [00:18:14] Right. Okay. [00:18:16] Can I follow up on that? I think you answered my next question and that was the pedestrian [00:18:24] buttons. I know there's, if I'm not mistaken, there's two different types of pedestrian [00:18:30] buttons. There's one that all that pedestrian button does would turn the crosswalk indicators [00:18:36] on. And then there's another type that would have an influence upon the light change. Am [00:18:41] I right so far about that? [00:18:45] I don't know what kind that we have. [00:18:50] So Robert, in other words, if I'm a pedestrian and I punch a crosswalk button, does that [00:18:58] have any type of influence on the timing of that watch, of that light? [00:19:08] It depends on where you're at when you hit it. It'll go through its cycle and the next [00:19:14] time it comes up to the cycle that is calling out for that pedestrian to go across the road, [00:19:22] that's when it will pick it up and start flashing. And then those, the delay there is based upon [00:19:31] how fast a person walks, how many steps it takes. And they add that time and then that's [00:19:37] when you see the pedestrian light starting to flash and then it's a steady burn. It's [00:19:41] because it's timing what it takes for a typical pedestrian to cross the roadway. [00:19:48] So if I understand what you're telling me, if I press the pedestrian button, it will [00:19:52] not increase the speed when I'm going to be able to walk, but when I do walk, it'll adjust [00:19:58] the time it gives me to cross, right? [00:20:01] Correct. But it's going to cycle, the light itself is going to cycle until it gets to [00:20:06] the point where you're going to go with the traffic. [00:20:09] And then it's going to make sure... [00:20:11] Now they know that it's a pedestrian involved, it could, based upon what the program timing [00:20:18] is, might lengthen that light to allow the cross. [00:20:23] So if they were crossing at bank when you don't have hardly any cars, you could end [00:20:28] up with extended north-south green time to allow the pedestrian to get across the road. [00:20:34] And that sort of comes to my next question. I'm only slightly facetious about doing four-way [00:20:38] stops, but particularly Bank Street, but to some degree Grand as well, is there any [00:20:50] reason for those to be cycling absent somebody sitting on the cross streets? [00:20:58] And I see it all the time, where there's nobody at the intersection going north or south, [00:21:06] and the light turns red for the east-west traffic, and that is part of the problem. [00:21:10] Most of the controllers will only extend the primary run leg out to a certain point, and [00:21:21] the fear is that the receiver from the minority legs may not be working, so it isn't going [00:21:28] to cut them off forever, or they would get stuck there forever. [00:21:32] So it'll adjust the green time, let's say on Main Street, it might adjust it somewhere, [00:21:39] depending on how it's sensing traffic, it might have a minimum of 30 seconds and a maximum [00:21:44] of 70 seconds, or whatever the window is. And then at the end of 70 seconds, it will [00:21:49] run the whole cycle to make sure there's nobody trapped that didn't activate the sensor on [00:21:55] the side streets, so that they don't have to stay there forever, and it allows them [00:22:01] to cut them off. So it'll run through a full cycle periodically. [00:22:06] I would pretend to be a cyclist who's not going to trigger it. [00:22:09] Right. So there's usually a minimum and a maximum run time given to really all the legs, [00:22:16] but predominantly the main primary legs. [00:22:19] Can we stretch the maximum out so that it still gives eventually a way for somebody [00:22:27] going north-south to get out, but at the same time gives maximum green time to the [00:22:33] east-west traffic? 10 seconds or so. [00:22:36] Now if there's a walker there and not a car, it's going to cycle too, right? [00:22:40] If there's a walker there that hits the button, it's going to cycle even... [00:22:44] Right. [00:22:45] No cars there. [00:22:48] I didn't hit those buttons because I'm not a user. [00:22:53] Can we get the slide up again that had your red boxes and showed your intersections [00:23:02] and some of your time delays? Is that possible? [00:23:08] Yes. [00:23:09] Okay. [00:23:15] So your analysis has been applied and is functioning now. [00:23:20] Is that you're informing us of what has been done and is in place? [00:23:25] It's not in place. We have submitted the report to Pasco County. [00:23:30] They did notify us the other day that they are in the review process, [00:23:35] and that that review process should take a week, and then within two weeks, [00:23:41] we should see their people out there implementing the changes. [00:23:46] So right now, nothing has been done, to answer your question. [00:23:50] Just a plus one. [00:23:51] You touched on the Adams Four-Way. [00:23:55] There is a major safety issue there, and the Four-Way stop solves it, [00:24:00] because historically, that intersection is blind, [00:24:04] particularly if you're coming from the north and south. [00:24:09] It's a blind intersection, and that's why we've got the police department [00:24:14] is just a few blocks up the street there to it, [00:24:17] and that lets that traffic get out onto Main Street safely. [00:24:22] Thank you for putting the slide up. [00:24:24] There's another slide that has numbers on it that shows the seconds that are involved. [00:24:30] When you look at that, it's obviously clear that everyone coming from the north on Adams, [00:24:35] there's a lot more traffic coming from the north on Adams from Massachusetts, [00:24:40] which is our other east-west connector out to Little Road and beyond. [00:24:44] So folks that come all the way down Massachusetts and into Adams have that right turn, [00:24:50] and you can see the time is a little longer, I think, right on that. [00:25:00] The southbound movement? [00:25:03] The southbound movement is more. [00:25:10] It appears to be 10.1, the level of service B in both the existing and the proposed condition. [00:25:16] But even though it's a stop sign, the eastbound, [00:25:19] and my thought is that these seconds waiting when you get to the light [00:25:25] are waiting for you to be the first one at the stop sign to be able to make the turn [00:25:30] because everybody, when they come to the stop sign, [00:25:32] looks to see who the first one was to let them in before the next one comes in. [00:25:36] So as I'm just trying to make sure I'm analyzing this time frame where there is a street stop sign, [00:25:46] the point that I'm trying to make is that the eastbound traffic, not the eastbound, I'm sorry, [00:25:53] the northbound traffic gets out faster because it doesn't often have anybody in front of them [00:26:01] when they come up to the stop sign. [00:26:03] So more people are coming in, that's your traffic count, right? [00:26:06] There are more coming in from the north than there are from the south. [00:26:11] And then depending on the time of day, whether people are commuters [00:26:14] or coming in from the highway to go home or back, [00:26:17] which gets me to this point about the intelligent traffic signalization [00:26:22] and the next generation of that. [00:26:25] So my support would be there, if others would agree with me, [00:26:30] to try to optimize the technology that we do use on the Main Street connection [00:26:37] so that we can make it continue to work as it's continuing to get busier and busier and busier, [00:26:44] not just from our own success but also from the traffic. [00:26:48] Yeah, and you can see right up on here the Main Street and Grand, [00:26:54] that's 64 seconds compared to 16 seconds eastbound at Main and Adams. [00:27:01] So it is, Grand Boulevard is the choke point. [00:27:07] Right, and so if we could go back to the other slide, again, that has the four, the red boxes. [00:27:14] I would like to talk for a minute about the comment you made about River Road [00:27:18] and the sort of delaying the folks getting on from River Road allows a better flow through. [00:27:25] That was, I thought, the summary of what you did, [00:27:29] where you explained that the light at River might have taken a few more seconds to get through. [00:27:35] And again, in the same basis as Adams Street, River Road is the same thing [00:27:41] People coming south on Highway 19 that are dipping into the Awful Waffle parking lot, [00:27:47] or coming in, I'm sorry, from the Waffle House, I think, [00:27:53] are using that because they have a break at the light to come in and to follow River Road into town. [00:28:01] So there's a lot more traffic, again, coming from the north into Main Street [00:28:08] because of the ability for them to come in on these alternative routes. [00:28:14] But I had been speaking to Wada Farah from the DOT, who's the intersection director. [00:28:21] I imagine you know Wada or know of him. [00:28:24] Yeah, more of him. [00:28:25] He's with the DOT, and he sits on the Regional Planning Council, as well as has been around forever. [00:28:33] And when we were doing the sort of 3D, what were we going to do at Acorn and the corner of Main and 19? [00:28:42] And we did have some dialogue from residents about 19 and not only getting on, but how to get off. [00:28:49] And there was worry, I think, by my colleague, Kelly. [00:28:53] I think you were the one that said, if we back them up, we're going to really have a problem. [00:29:02] So we have to think about all the alternatives. [00:29:04] Wada suggested to me a couple things I just want to share with you all and see if it's accurate in your minds. [00:29:11] But number one, that all of the flyovers on U.S. Highway 19 that were done in Pinellas County [00:29:19] were very painful to the commercial and the retail folks that were there. [00:29:25] But now, if you guys go to St. Pete, you're pretty happy when you get to Clearwater like I am because you have them. [00:29:32] And so we have this serious choke point. [00:29:36] You're talking about grand. [00:29:38] Highway 19 is becoming a serious choke point. [00:29:41] You can't get in to the U-Haul place, hardly, or out of it during a busy day without having someone let you in. [00:29:52] And one of the concerns when we were talking about that project on the corner and residential use. [00:30:00] was the people on River Road, who live on the river, were not too... were [00:30:07] questioning how much density that we put in terms of apartments or more people [00:30:12] living in town. And WADA suggested that if we have that residential [00:30:19] basis there and they want to go north on 19, that they shouldn't try to cross the [00:30:24] 19, the Main Street traffic to get in on that short space in between there to [00:30:31] add to the load of traffic coming west on Main and that there should be a new [00:30:37] connection through the SunTrust building and on through to have them [00:30:43] come south to get out to the highway where there's enough room for them to [00:30:48] come in or turn off. So he has suggested as the intersection person and as a [00:30:54] design person that that that area there run through Acorn, kind of by our [00:31:02] parking garage, where we also have a whole bunch of cars and traffic that's [00:31:07] going to unload on times when we're busy. So as you're evaluating Main Street, I'm [00:31:14] just pointing out that what we're trying to accomplish with density, we could use [00:31:21] advice, and I'm passing the advice I got on, about how to get that traffic back [00:31:29] onto the highway and not back out onto Main Street without taking it to River [00:31:37] Road, which is where there's this sense of sort of privacy, which you all who [00:31:42] live on River Road know. You see the same thing on the other side, right, coming in [00:31:47] from coming in and joining. You're suggesting we need another cut on 19 if we do [00:31:53] something on that, right? My suggestion is, and I saw that there's something being [00:31:57] contemplated by the CRA next to the parking garage, but Chip Waller's office [00:32:03] there and that area there, and it was not my suggestion, it was the DOT saying we [00:32:11] don't know what's going to happen with 19. Back to my original point, we don't [00:32:16] have the flyovers, the traffic volume is increasing, what is the level of service [00:32:22] out on Highway 19 becoming, and what are we going to do to make our city be able [00:32:28] to function with Highway 19 and to still have our main east-west corridor? So I [00:32:34] think that I appreciate all this study. My only point is that we have some [00:32:41] potential future things, which might be another task order, which is like, okay, [00:32:45] now that we know where people are coming from and what, how are we going to [00:32:49] project handling this traffic if we have another 200 or 300 apartments or units [00:32:57] of residential that's right there by that choke point? I think you're making [00:33:03] a very valid point that needs to be thought of as we're doing that. And as we [00:33:08] design that property and see what's going to happen, I think that it's, point [00:33:13] being, that not only is the drainage and the recreational pond and all of that [00:33:17] sort of innovative stuff important, but just as importantly is how do we make [00:33:21] our parking garage that we've got so much invested in really functional so [00:33:26] that when people come out of that parking garage, if they want to go back [00:33:29] to the north, maybe they have a way to do that. The county and DOT both [00:33:37] aggressively promote cross-access between businesses and developments, not [00:33:43] even businesses, residential as well as commercial, in order to do just what [00:33:49] you're, allow just what you're describing, where residents or [00:33:56] tenants of one parcel can drive through another parcel to get to a common [00:34:00] access point that is further away from an intersection, is safer, so the people [00:34:05] are kind of concentrated, more DOTs really resistant to allowing multiple access [00:34:12] points in the close proximity of a business intersection like this. There's [00:34:17] just too many conflicting movements happening, too many opportunities for accidents. [00:34:20] And a tourist property may be the place where that occurs. Right, and there's [00:34:24] probably a few, two or three of us in the room today who would remember Joan of [00:34:28] Gone Again Travel, who fought hard to get that, you remember it maybe, Robert [00:34:35] who fought hard to get that access into Kaiser University. And so you can get [00:34:41] into Kaiser University and you can cross it from going out to the highway to get [00:34:47] into that access. It was a struggle to get DOT to allow that in, that proximity, [00:34:54] so we're only adding to the volume of a hotel, people who don't drive normally, [00:35:00] density, which we need, and I think that this gave me an opportunity, I think, to [00:35:05] comment on the need for that. But I think a way for me is we should spend all the [00:35:12] money we can on the technology so that we can make it as effective both for the [00:35:18] pedestrian and for its functionality. Yeah, so I think that's something we will [00:35:25] look at once we know more what that project will become, and we can [00:35:29] look at it then. I'd like to get back to Main Street. Was there any consideration, [00:35:34] because we talked about the delay there on River Road, and I'm just, I don't know, [00:35:40] I'm just thinking that Adams is kind of, to me, is kind of like the one bookend of [00:35:46] our downtown core. I understand it really kind of extends beyond that to City Hall [00:35:51] and so forth, but the same thing, it's almost like River Road is like the other [00:35:56] bookend to the downtown core. We're looking to expand that and that, you know, [00:36:01] in time all the way out to 19 become critical. So I didn't, was there any [00:36:06] consideration given with a traffic flow if there was a four-way stop at River [00:36:11] Road, for example? I would think that the amount of traffic at that intersection [00:36:17] would closely resemble the traffic at Adams. That's an interesting point because for [00:36:22] the folks on Main, that's a, for lack of a better term, a stop-and-go, which [00:36:30] would save somebody from doing the the stunt that I caught on camera a couple [00:36:34] weeks ago, where three people blew the red light. We didn't, we didn't consider [00:36:40] Main and in River as far as doing an analysis on whether a four-way stop sign [00:36:49] would work there, simply because you're getting into different characteristics [00:36:54] of an intersection. You have multiple turn lanes, you're not just dealing, when [00:36:59] you compare it to Adams Street and Main Street, it's a very simplistic intersection. [00:37:06] That might speak to keeping it with a line. But there definitely needs to be a no-U-turn sign on the [00:37:13] westbound traffic on Main Street at River Road. Can you make a U-turn there? They do and [00:37:19] they run and they stop and they back up all the time. Always. I mentioned it before, but it seems like it's, like, almost impossible. [00:37:29] And then if you have cars parked over there on that side too, it's even harder. Yeah, if we could get everybody to ride a golf cart, they could make that U-turn. [00:37:37] But other than that, it's not happening. But Mike, going back to Main Street, I [00:37:42] don't know, no one has chimed in, but I know there are expenses involved, but I [00:37:47] think we should be exploring having, as a city, the highest technology we could [00:37:52] get. And I know you say it's available. That's the point. We talking [00:37:58] scrapping the whole system and starting over, or something you can... You would [00:38:03] be purchasing the latest software technology. We're probably looking at [00:38:10] around $70,000. So, I mean, if you wanted to go down that path, it would be [00:38:16] something to where we could we could optimize the corridor now and then [00:38:22] budget for that money when you're doing your budget process for the coming year. [00:38:27] And your database is there to help you analyze the, you know, the effects of [00:38:33] things and the seasonal aspect of it and the holidays, whatever else they put [00:38:39] into the factor. I figured it'd be a lot more, but not too bad. That was the cost [00:38:44] estimate that we got about six months ago. It's just software. It's not, it's [00:38:49] it's everything to implement it, to be able to sync them. Oh, I'm in favor, so I [00:38:54] don't know how long it'd take to convince my colleagues. I would take a look at it. [00:39:04] Extending the greens to the, for east-west traffic, to the maximum amount [00:39:10] practicable, would be an inexpensive interim fix. But to take take a look at [00:39:19] it, I say that those two lights right downtown, they're, they are the problem. [00:39:26] And a lot of it is because every time I go up there, it seems I'm winding up at a [00:39:32] red light and there's nobody coming across. Nobody. Well, I think this would [00:39:37] help with that. It would. The technology and, you know, even if you fix one [00:39:41] intersection, you know, make it more efficient or get more cars through there, [00:39:46] if you haven't done that with the other ones, you're still gonna have a backup. [00:39:50] Work to allow us to remove the light at Bank Street, if we have those two lights, [00:39:55] because I know a lot of mid-intersections, if the lights are stopped on both [00:39:59] directions, you actually have a way out, putting stop signs there. But, because now [00:40:06] that we don't have Bank Street becoming Grand Boulevard, which, you know, which [00:40:10] it just led right that way, and the short block the other way, it's only the [00:40:17] people that live where I used to that want to get out and make a left that, [00:40:21] that's trouble. I would say that it's possible, and it's like David said, you [00:40:26] know, you want to move slow with things like this. Right. My, my recommendation is, [00:40:30] is, yeah, we, we take a look at it, but we take a look at it after that parcel's [00:40:35] developed at Grady and Percher Dunes, I think, because who knows what's gonna go [00:40:39] there. That could definitely change the characteristics of that intersection, and [00:40:43] so you don't really want to move fast with things like this. I'm just raising, I [00:40:47] don't. But I, it's a good idea. I, I agree with you. I mean, if, if something that [00:40:52] was going to go in there wouldn't impact traffic that much on those side streets, [00:40:56] then I think it's something worth taking a look at, but I would just want to [00:41:01] caution moving too fast before that, that gets developed. And that intersection [00:41:06] is, can be pedestrian driven as much as it might be side street, right, driven [00:41:10] there, as you know. So, so I think, I think we make the, yeah, we make the, the, we're [00:41:19] not gonna wave a magic wand here, I understand, unfortunately, but, but the [00:41:26] incremental changes and improvements, at least from now we've looked at it, we [00:41:30] know what's possible, and then I think we, I think we look at the smart [00:41:34] technology for, for implementation at a, when we can budget for it. Any other [00:41:41] thoughts, guys? David, thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you, thank you for [00:41:48] your comments from the floor. Sure. If you, could you come up to a... [00:41:55] Yeah, that, that actually, he wanted to know if we could do it during, during, extend the [00:42:18] the green lights east-west during the rush hour, the 4 to 6. That, that sort of [00:42:23] tracks what I was suggesting. Let's, let's extend those lights to the, the [00:42:27] maximum amount we can. It, it, the, the critical point is going to be right [00:42:34] during that rush time. So, absolutely right. Robert, do we have to adjust our order we [00:42:41] sent to the county on that? We can talk with, we'll talk with them. We'll sit down. [00:42:46] Yeah, that, that should be fairly simple for them to deal with. I mean, they're [00:42:50] just starting their review, so we can go ahead and give them a call Monday, sit [00:42:54] down and start talking with them and add some suggestions and see what they can [00:42:58] come up with. Mr. Mayor, while we have a traffic guy here, just could I, could I [00:43:04] try to venture? Sure. Off of Main Street one more time. To the other future issue [00:43:11] we have, which is the closing of the Grand Boulevard Bridge at some point, a [00:43:16] year, two years, whenever it happens. And the increased use that will occur on [00:43:23] Madison Street. Currently, right now, there is a great flow of traffic coming in [00:43:31] from the Tampa Worker Force that comes down 54 to Madison to come in. Not just [00:43:39] the school on and off times, but Madison is a great road, really, to come into town [00:43:44] on. But Cecilia has no turn lane, and so wouldn't, this is really kind of for

   This text was generated automatically from the meeting video. It is not a verbatim or official record. For exact wording, consult the video or the city clerk.

3. 3

   Proposed Single Waste Hauling Program

   discussed

   Staff presented options for moving from the current subscription-based multi-hauler trash collection system to a single-hauler system via RFP, with potential start in November 2023 to avoid displacement payouts. Council gave consensus direction to proceed with issuing an RFP for a single hauler, with billing to be determined (tax bill vs. utility bill) and a backup/emergency hauler provision included. Yard waste/debris collection will be addressed in a separate discussion.

   • consensus:Council directed staff to proceed with issuing an RFP for a single waste hauler system, with the option to revisit the decision after RFP results. (passed)
   • direction:RFP should include provision for an emergency/backup hauler on standby. (passed)

   📍Madison Street at Cecilia🏢J.D. Parker🏢Pasco County👤Councilman Altman👤David👤Mr. Murphy👤Mr. Peters👤Mr. Rivera#2017 mandatory collection ordinance#CPI for garbage collection rate adjustments#Franchise fee analysis (2019)#Penny for Pasco#Single Waste Hauling Program#Solid Waste Disposal RFP#Windrow composting program

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   [00:43:52] Robert, too. If we put at least a seed of thought in their eye, in their ear, there [00:44:02] has to be some change of that intersection at Cecilia. I came in today [00:44:07] and the traffic flow out this morning, the rush hour traffic going out Madison, [00:44:14] did not allow the first guy in line to make a left turn. And he waited and [00:44:21] waited, and folks go through that late yellow, and he never entered the [00:44:26] intersection, so he didn't go. And then the light turns green again, and that [00:44:31] same driver has stopped there. There's enough room on Madison and Louisiana [00:44:38] that if I turn left on the Louisiana going south and get into the [00:44:43] intersection, people can go around me, which is what they do. But Madison Street [00:44:50] at that intersection seems to be a real problem because we don't have the width [00:44:58] there, and I don't know if it's possible. [00:45:00] But I would bring that to your attention. [00:45:02] Would it require right-of-way acquisition as well as a joint project between the county and the city? [00:45:10] The county operates and maintains Cecilia. [00:45:14] So I'm thinking that Penny for Pasco was used when it first passed to expand the Main Street extension [00:45:22] and put it past the post office, and it was a joint use of funds. [00:45:26] And so if we find these kind of road intersections where we can entice them to put some money up, [00:45:33] I think that it might be worthwhile. [00:45:37] But Madison is going to only become a more critical north-south road. [00:45:45] Probably not long-term, but for the year or two that they've got the Grand Boulevard bridge torn up, absolutely. [00:45:52] Well, and then all the development going on, it's going to continue to increase. [00:45:57] When was your traffic count done? [00:46:02] And precisely what I'm asking is, was it done before or after the new stop signs were installed there on Madison? [00:46:12] It was done after. [00:46:14] That's fine, because I think traffic on Adams has increased since the stop signs went on there. [00:46:23] People coming south off of Massachusetts into the city may have used to come on Madison, [00:46:29] but now they've got two more stop signs, now they go down to Adams and come into town. [00:46:33] I think a lot of that, too, is because of all the construction there with the power poles going in. [00:46:39] They've got it blocked off for detours on Madison, so they're going over there anyway. [00:46:44] To respond to you, for this analysis, the counts were done after the setup. [00:46:54] Now, prior to putting those four-way stop signs, part of the warrants that you have to do before you install those stops [00:47:02] is to take and do your counts, so we should have post and pre. [00:47:08] So we'd be able to review that data and give you the answer if those stop signs did increase the traffic. [00:47:16] I think it's a good question. It's interesting. I'm going to look it up. [00:47:18] Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that was the case, because I know of at least one individual that does that daily. [00:47:26] Excellent point. [00:47:27] I do that myself. [00:47:29] Yeah, I tend to use Adams, too, because it's just convenient. [00:47:33] I changed my pattern. [00:47:35] Anything else on this? [00:47:37] Thank you very much. [00:47:39] Next item is the proposed single waste haul program. [00:47:45] I'm going to let Mr. Rivera kick this one off. [00:47:49] We're running a little bit over, so I'm going to let you jump right in. [00:47:54] I'm going to try to cut some corners on the PowerPoint, because I know the city clerk has you all scheduled for some things. [00:48:03] Thank you, David. [00:48:06] This is the solid waste disposal program. [00:48:10] When we start off the slide, we all are familiar with the city's current system, so I'll be very brief on this slide. [00:48:18] Basically, it's considered a subscription-based system, which means it's an open market. [00:48:23] If there are licensed trash collection vendors that operate within the city, a resident can do business with either one of them. [00:48:34] Your trash collection days, recyclable collection days, your yard debris collection, all of that is all standard. [00:48:44] Just to let you know, anything that we propose to you now will still keep the same requirements. [00:48:53] Just one interesting note to let you know that the county ordinance was passed last year, I believe it was, [00:48:59] that changed the way the trash haulers were able to be able to increase due to inflation of their collection services. [00:49:12] Prior to that, it had been, I want to say, approximately around 20 years before the garbage collectors had had an increase. [00:49:21] Now they're able to go by the CPI for garbage and collections. [00:49:25] It can go up, it can go down. There is a maximum allowable increase, and right now they are at $19.54 per month. [00:49:35] For the city, the waste hauling system that we have, as you're aware, the six or the haulers that have licenses will apply for a special permit. [00:49:49] That occurs in December. We bring it in front of you for approval, and it lasts a calendar year from January 1 to December 31 of that year. [00:50:01] There is a 10% franchise fee that's paid by the haulers to the city, and this is a pass-through. [00:50:09] A little historical events. In 2017, council did approve the ordinance requiring that everybody have collection services. [00:50:19] When we went ahead and did our review in 2019 with our franchise fee analysis, the consultant did identify that there was approximately 1,900 residents that weren't utilizing the services. [00:50:35] At that point in time in the report, they did recommend that the city consider consolidating the trash hauling service or entering into an exclusive agreement. [00:50:46] It was at that time that we started discussing either a single hauler or either a dual hauler, one or the other. [00:50:54] In 2021, we did send out displacement notices, and of course with the former Florida statute that required that you give the haulers a three-year notice. [00:51:06] If you wanted to terminate prior to the three-year notices, then you had to pay them the balance of what they would have made if they would have stayed in the city for those three years. [00:51:21] If memory serves me right, I think when we added up, we did a two-hauler system proposal. [00:51:27] When we totaled up the remaining four haulers, I think we were looking at between $300,000 and $500,000 to pay them off, for lack of a better term. [00:51:40] In February of 2022, we had a work session and council gave the city manager direction to have staff start proceeding with a two-hauler system. [00:51:54] What we ended up doing was, in April, we submitted the RFP for the two haulers. [00:52:01] The two haulers that we approached were the ones that had the largest amount of customers that were in the city. [00:52:08] Of course, the base bid was the same as the system that we have now. [00:52:15] It did include yard debris collection. [00:52:18] The thing between that and what the city does in-house is anybody could have their yard waste collected with their trash pickup. [00:52:30] They just had to follow the guidelines of the trash hauler as far as bundling it up and the length of the yard debris. [00:52:39] Then we also added an alternate bid. [00:52:43] This included a one-time per week yard waste pickup and the cost that was associated with it, [00:52:55] as well as, I know you all have seen the 96-gallon trash receptacles that are out there. [00:53:02] We ended up getting the cost for the purchase of those or leasing. [00:53:08] You can do it either way, as well as recycling receptacles. [00:53:12] Those were a little bit smaller containers and so they were a little bit less money. [00:53:16] Then we added additional large household items. [00:53:20] In other words, your first two large items you could get free, included in the cost of your monthly payment. [00:53:28] If you had more than that in that calendar year, that was the dollar amount that it would cost you. [00:53:37] When we reviewed it, we also sat down with the two trash haulers and tried to talk with them about it. [00:53:46] Prior to sending out the RFPs, we talked to each hauler and asked them about the one clause that we had in there [00:53:55] that stated that if we had five bidders that bidder the lowest bid won, [00:54:05] then the next lowest, number two, would have to guarantee to match hauler number one's price [00:54:14] because we're operating on two haulers. [00:54:18] They said that most of the people said they wouldn't bid that way [00:54:22] because there was no way that they could operate at the same cost as someone else does. [00:54:28] It's just different business models. [00:54:32] We also tried to talk to the two haulers and say, [00:54:35] can you take and try to work together to where we can maybe get an average that you guys would agree on? [00:54:43] When we talked to high level, they were amenable to it, [00:54:47] but then when we started getting down into the weeds, it fell apart. [00:54:51] It became apparent that while we might have a more efficient management of our waste collection system [00:54:59] as well as 100% participating customers, [00:55:04] it didn't look like the two hauler system would be able to accommodate what we were looking for [00:55:12] just on the sheer amount of customers that were being divided up to make it profitable. [00:55:19] Then, of course, it had no bearing on whether or not you had any competition or not. [00:55:25] If you were on the east side of town, however we divided our area up, [00:55:31] you still couldn't get upset with that trash hauler and move over to the second one. [00:55:36] We still had eliminated that process to make the system work. [00:55:46] The only other point that I wanted to add was when we did receive the rates, [00:55:52] they were lower than the rates currently being charged by our solid waste collectors. [00:56:00] Question? If I may, if we bill through our billing, [00:56:05] then we would be putting a cost to that rate so that we would be... [00:56:10] Correct. [00:56:11] No rates might be lower, but we're providing a service that they didn't have [00:56:15] and we're increasing a customer base that they don't have. [00:56:18] Correct. [00:56:19] Correct. [00:56:20] What we end up doing, too, this is the last slide for this part. [00:56:25] We wanted to ask you a few questions and eliminate the yard debris questions or policies [00:56:33] so that we could go ahead and take care of this [00:56:36] and then have the discussion with the yard debris separately [00:56:40] so that we weren't blending things together. [00:56:43] Where we're at here is basically is do you want to move forward with a single hauler? [00:56:50] What I mean by that, do you want staff to go ahead, send out an RFP, [00:56:57] and then now that we're operating or our time limit is coming near to those three years, [00:57:06] we would anticipate that November, if we did accept the RFP, [00:57:10] if everything went the way it was planned, we would start our single hauler system in November, [00:57:16] and therefore we wouldn't have any payouts to any of the other. [00:57:20] We wouldn't be displacing them. [00:57:23] And so that's one of the questions that we would ask. [00:57:27] And then we would also say that if you could sit there and say, [00:57:32] yes, we want you to proceed with the single hauler system, [00:57:34] and then if we get that RFP back and we're looking at it [00:57:38] and we're discussing it and things didn't turn out the way you had thought that they should turn out, [00:57:44] you still have that option to go ahead and say, you know what? [00:57:48] No, we don't want to go with the single hauler. [00:57:50] We want to keep the same subscription-based program that we have. [00:57:54] So this wouldn't be, if you give us direction today, [00:57:58] this wouldn't be the total last meeting that we would have. [00:58:02] Right. [00:58:04] We could also come before you with the RFP and ask that you approve it or ask that you not approve it. [00:58:11] And so the other questions that we have, well, the other questions that we have, [00:58:15] I'll just go ahead and do these real quick, and then hopefully you can give us direction. [00:58:19] But, you know, the containers, that's an added cost. [00:58:24] Not sure what your vision is with that, [00:58:28] but we would want to know whether or not you would want to proceed with that element. [00:58:33] The final discussion, as Councilman Altman was talking about, is the fee for the service. [00:58:38] There's two options that we can do. [00:58:40] We can put it on the tax bill. [00:58:42] This would ensure we feel 100% customer participation. [00:58:46] It does or would have a high rate of collectible accounts. [00:58:50] The fee is tax deductible. [00:58:53] Landlords may not embrace this system of billing simply because if they're renters or things like that, as an example, [00:59:00] they could leave and the homeowner is still responsible for it or the landlord is. [00:59:06] And then there is an administrative fee that Pasco County does place on the bill, [00:59:11] and this is for their administration fees. [00:59:16] And so we could put it on the utility bill. [00:59:18] If we did the utility bill, now that Pasco County fee goes away. [00:59:24] The cash flow is spread throughout the year rather than in accordance with your tax bill that you get. [00:59:32] There is a high risk or the potential to have a higher risk of uncollectible accounts. [00:59:39] And then it's difficult and risky to transfer accounts from one individual to another, [00:59:45] particularly when they're not the homeowner, which is sometimes what we struggle with with our utility bills. [00:59:52] So those are the questions that we have before you as far as how we proceed from this point. [01:00:00] Want us to proceed with the RFP going to a single hauler? [01:00:07] I'd like to see us do it. I don't have strong feelings on how you bill for it. [01:00:13] Mr. Mayor, I was a finance director at a point when we talked about this and also was in charge of that process. [01:00:20] So if you would allow me to lay out what I think are the issues that might be, I would appreciate it. [01:00:26] The utility bills themselves are a lien and are collectible over time. [01:00:35] The problem is always that we've had the renters moving out and we've had policy issues with respect to utility bills. [01:00:43] So your conversation of the shortcoming of using the utility bill only leads to a bigger discussion about how do we make sure that we get all our utility payments. [01:00:53] So we should be working hard to collect all the money that's due us rather than, I think, saying, [01:01:01] well, we don't get all our money so maybe we go the other way. [01:01:08] So I favor the utility bill also from a standpoint of it doesn't increase taxes. [01:01:13] That's what people see. [01:01:15] I do question the tax deductible. [01:01:21] I think you would need a CPA to give you that advice because I don't believe that a user fee is probably tax deductible when it comes to that. [01:01:31] You can't deduct the collection administrative fees on your water bill. [01:01:38] I don't think you could deduct the administrative fees on your garbage bill, but I would defer to someone who's practicing now. [01:01:50] But otherwise, yes, I am in favor of us doing things. [01:01:54] There was a law that we follow that forced the – that gave us the option to go to single hauler, and I'm happy to go along with you all. [01:02:07] But there is also the possibility, I think, to think about, just to throw it out, that if you go for the lowest bidder, [01:02:15] as you did with the second – with your first approach and said, okay, you were the second bidder, [01:02:21] would you like to match that and we could have a duel? [01:02:25] When I originally talked to all the garbage haulers, one of the concepts was, you know, you're doing 30 percent, [01:02:33] you're doing 50 percent, you're doing 60 percent, would you be interested in a similar percentage [01:02:40] so you're not going over the same roads all the time, to which the answer was yes. [01:02:45] And from a legal standpoint, I think, talked to the lawyer about it, but if they were all in agreement, then there could be an agreement. [01:02:53] Let's just say, for example, J.D. Parker is not the low bidder, [01:02:56] and they're the local New Port Richey market that there's a lot of support for them as a hauler. [01:03:04] But let's say the other low bidder said they're going to do it for $19 a month or whatever it is, [01:03:10] to the option that in the bid process that to any other existing hauler who was willing to accept the low bid [01:03:20] and to the ability the city had the ability to do it, we could have multiple haulers. [01:03:26] And, you know, there was one of the folks who's running for mayor right now who was absolutely against doing a single hauler [01:03:33] because it was going to throw out the opportunity for everybody to make money. [01:03:38] And I think that particularly having a local firm, I don't even know who the low bidder was, and it was them. [01:03:48] But now that the dollar is out and the first bid came out, that doesn't stop from another bidder to say, [01:03:55] well, I know what they bid and bidding below them and them getting pinched out. [01:04:00] So I would ask if there could be a little bit of discussion about sharing the revenue to the degree other valid, [01:04:10] acceptable haulers are out there that could work in the city, being able to have an element of our business [01:04:18] that somewhat equated to what their existing business is in terms of their, you know, they have a 30 percent use. [01:04:25] We could easily put regions of the city out. [01:04:29] Maybe not easily, but I'm throwing all that out. [01:04:34] I'm willing to go along with the single hauler. [01:04:38] I mean, I certainly would like to see the waste, the solid waste be a separate discussion [01:04:42] because I don't want to undermine our windrow of composting, [01:04:46] but I do see the definite need for us to improve on that system in some way. [01:04:52] And maybe that results in a charge or not, but it was going to be a charge if you did it here. [01:04:57] And I've talked for a number of years about supporting a charge for picking up solid waste. [01:05:03] And I think that's a separate discussion. [01:05:04] I agree. [01:05:05] Thank you. [01:05:06] Mr. Peters. [01:05:08] Yeah, I don't see a downside to the single hauler. [01:05:12] It's going to be less costly to our residents, number one. [01:05:19] Number two, should we have a problem with a hauler or a garbage truck oil leak or a trash debris, [01:05:29] we won't have to guess which hauler was responsible for that. [01:05:35] We talked about one of the most popular programs in our road resurfacing area, [01:05:42] and probably what beats our roads up more than anything else is the trash trucks. [01:05:48] I don't need five different trash trucks going down my road when there can be one. [01:05:54] You can eliminate four or five times that type of traffic in cases. [01:06:03] It reduces the noise associated with the trash haulers, and it gives us a little bigger, [01:06:14] and particularly if we're helping collect and pay the money, [01:06:19] maybe a little bit bigger stick on any service issues should we have with those haulers. [01:06:26] I don't see there's any question about whether to go to a single hauler or not. [01:06:34] The question I have a little bit is on the billing. [01:06:38] What is the fee for the county on that? [01:06:42] The fee is 3%. [01:06:44] It's an administrative fee, but you can have discussion with the tax collector [01:06:49] and see if he'd give you any relief from that fee. [01:06:52] Okay. [01:06:54] You know, the way I see that, there's advantage to putting it with the property [01:07:03] because number for two reasons. [01:07:05] One, on our rental dwellings, right, it eliminates who's responsible, [01:07:13] the property owner or the renter or so forth. [01:07:15] We know where that responsibility lies with the property owner, right, [01:07:18] and whether he wants to bill down his rent fee or so forth, [01:07:21] how he wants to deal with that will be up to them. [01:07:24] And secondly, it eliminates any issue about collectability [01:07:30] because it's on the property tax bill, right? [01:07:33] But we're giving up 3% or 2% or whatever we negotiate for that. [01:07:42] We have to kind of weigh that. [01:07:45] So I think I favor that towards the utility bill, [01:07:54] but I wouldn't let either one get in the way of me going to the single hauler. [01:07:59] Thank you. [01:08:01] I've got to respond to something that you said [01:08:03] because you apparently didn't understand me. [01:08:05] Can we let the other two have an edge twice, please? [01:08:08] I waited for back and forth at the first meeting before I spoke. [01:08:11] Let's let these other two have a chance to say something. [01:08:13] I'll go after you. [01:08:14] We want to let them have a talk, [01:08:17] but we had back and forth questions all over the first work session. [01:08:21] So, Mr. Peters, just to be clear, [01:08:25] I was never suggesting that more than one truck would be on the road. [01:08:29] It was really just regional. [01:08:32] I understood that. [01:08:33] Yeah, and so that's all I wanted to say. [01:08:35] I think the volume discount overrides it. [01:08:37] Mr. Murphy. [01:08:39] No, I'm in favor of the single hauler. [01:08:42] I don't know if the county fee is going to outweigh the extra hassle [01:08:50] it would be to put on a utility bill to try to chase people down. [01:08:53] I guess if chasing them down for water, we'll chase them down for the garbage, too. [01:08:57] I don't know if it would increase any issues or staff or time or cost on our side. [01:09:03] I mean, I like the fact that it's just paid for. [01:09:05] I mean, the homeowner can add it on to the renter's rent. [01:09:09] It seems easier for us. [01:09:12] We can negotiate that down with the tax collector. [01:09:16] That's kind of where I'm leaning. [01:09:19] My only thing is just, you know, can we have a plan B on a hauler? [01:09:26] So if something happens to this hauler, you know, [01:09:29] whatever happens and we're having issues and people's garbage is backing up [01:09:32] or whatever, we can call somebody else and say, [01:09:34] hey, come in here and do this today on a contract basis for whatever it is, emergency. [01:09:41] We could put that in the RFP. [01:09:44] So almost similar to some of those contracts that we have for emergency debris collection [01:09:51] and monitoring, those types of things where you have a contractor on standby. [01:09:55] Right. [01:09:56] We could solidify that. [01:09:58] That would definitely make me feel better. [01:10:00] And in the contract would be a level of service requirement that they'd have to maintain, right? [01:10:04] Absolutely, there would be. [01:10:05] Sure. [01:10:07] So, yeah, I'd be agreeable to a one hauler as well. [01:10:12] Pros and cons, whether it's on the utility bill or the tax bill, I mean, the tax bill does make it easier. [01:10:18] If we still are able to come in with less cost to our residents, even with their percentage, [01:10:24] I think that that would work okay and would save us from having to do all that collection. [01:10:29] And I do think that the one hauler, we're going to get the prices down based on the amount of service [01:10:34] that they're going to have, right? [01:10:35] Instead of having five that are getting 20 percent of the city's business, we'll have one that gets 100 percent. [01:10:41] I think that we'll get a better discounted rate for that. [01:10:47] Anything else? [01:10:49] Mayor Ault. [01:10:50] Yes, sir. [01:10:51] Cash flow. [01:10:52] So it was described that this would start in November. [01:10:57] In order to get the property tax bill collection, you put that in in August, July. [01:11:05] You're going to be paying the haulers for eight months before we get collections. [01:11:11] So I'm only suggesting that from a standpoint of cash flow. [01:11:15] True. [01:11:17] And once again, I think there are ways in other cities, if I'm not mistaken, [01:11:21] that have the property owner responsible for the water and sewer bills of their renters. [01:11:30] And so I see this as an opportunity for us to tighten up and get more revenue to our public utilities [01:11:37] versus saying, okay, we lose. [01:11:39] There are ways. [01:11:40] When we bought the new software from Tyler Technologies, [01:11:45] they told us that they could take the information [01:11:50] and update our records through the common separated value process. [01:11:56] And so the biggest problem we've had is when real estate changed hands [01:12:03] and the renter or former owner stopped paying [01:12:09] and a new guy comes in and says, nobody ever sent me a bill, [01:12:12] and we never knew because we were billing the renter. [01:12:14] So there's a lot of nuances to the collection activity there, [01:12:19] and I think this gives us an opportunity. [01:12:22] So I would ask you to consider cash flow [01:12:25] and the timing of putting this into place as an element that would be worth discussing. [01:12:31] Anything else? [01:12:34] In the discussion with the haulers, [01:12:40] was there any price differential in their service, [01:12:44] whether we use standardized containers or the homeowner used their own containers? [01:12:50] In other words, if I'm the hauler, would I give you a different price, [01:12:54] whether it's all standard containers or other containers? [01:12:58] Does Amanda know, sir? [01:12:59] Okay. [01:13:02] We can buy the containers ourselves and put New Port Richey on them, too. [01:13:06] You see at the conferences, there's two or three booths with garbage containers. [01:13:12] I don't know what anybody else feels regarding that. [01:13:16] If there's not a cost savings involved, [01:13:21] then I don't see that we impose them to require their containers. [01:13:25] They're welcome to, but that way homeowners can use their own containers, [01:13:30] because a lot of them might not want to use those big ones, right? [01:13:33] It's just a uniform look, and they are available in different sizes. [01:13:37] Oh, they are? Okay. [01:13:38] That's interesting. [01:13:44] Hearing none, let's put off communications to the next meeting [01:13:50] and entertain a motion to adjourn. [01:13:54] Did we want to talk about yard waste? [01:13:58] We have a second half of the PowerPoint, so we can start. [01:14:02] Let's do that then real quick. [01:14:04] We've got 30 minutes before we're back here. [01:14:06] Just keep that in mind, guys. [01:14:08] I have a question on the haul. [01:14:21] That wasn't the cheapest one. [01:14:35] The second part of this is the RFP proposal was a weekly pickup of the yard debris. [01:14:48] The annual cost for that program was a bid of $358,200, [01:14:56] and this was to transport it to the county landfill. [01:15:00] We also had a cost that we wanted to have the vendor supply us with because we knew that council did not want to give up their compost recycling program that you have in place. [01:15:17] So the thought process was, okay, well, could we get a better deal if we had them haul it over to our place? [01:15:26] And as you can see, the hauler one increased his cost. [01:15:31] And we believe also, too, that while you would think it should go down for a weekly pickup, [01:15:41] they have to increase the capital, increase personnel and stuff like that to be able to take and provide that service. [01:15:49] The second hauler submitted it at 401 or 401,000 approximately, and they didn't care where they hauled it to. [01:16:01] It was going to be the same. [01:16:03] And so we just wanted to give you a little comparison to where our current program that we have, we are now where we're at around four to five week rotation. [01:16:12] Depending on if we have a event or something like that, that could extend out to six. [01:16:20] For the majority of the year, we've been averaging four to five week rotation. [01:16:25] The annual cost is about 220,000. [01:16:29] And of course, we wanted to see where we would be at if we did a weekly pickup program as well. [01:16:35] And ours was up to 880, obviously. [01:16:39] That includes having more manpower, more capital purchase for the equipment. [01:16:44] And really, we're not sure if the site that we have, because we would be picking up more frequently, [01:16:52] would we be actually hauling more of the debris simply because we do have a problem of illegal dumping. [01:17:00] And you have to be able to take care of that as well. [01:17:04] And so that's a totally different topic of discussion. [01:17:07] So the questions that we have when it comes to the yard debris is, do you want it to remain the same? [01:17:16] Do you want current state, the waste haulers will pick it up. [01:17:21] It's in the bill. [01:17:23] They just have to follow, the homeowner just has to follow the vendor's criteria as far as the length of the debris, how long it can be. [01:17:35] Whether it's in bundles, bags, those types of things, but it's part of the current service. [01:17:41] And do you want to keep the city's program in place the way it is? [01:17:46] And so the first option that you have is, do you want to keep things the way they are? [01:17:52] Or if you were to go to a single hauler, did you want them to include it in their level of service? [01:18:00] And if that was the case, how frequent would you want it? [01:18:06] Would you want it once a week? [01:18:07] I think that's probably about the maximum that a hauler would be able to perform when we've talked with them. [01:18:15] But you could make it every two weeks. [01:18:19] Are their prices based on weekly? [01:18:21] Those prices were based on weekly. [01:18:23] I know other municipalities, you know, divide their services up. [01:18:32] They have trash one day. [01:18:34] They have yard debris a day. [01:18:37] And they have household items a day, for example. [01:18:41] I know where my dad lives, he has that type of delivery service and seems to keep streets clean and neighborhoods clean and so forth. [01:18:53] I think that we've got to do something different than what we have. [01:19:00] You think about it, you know, how the city is progressing. [01:19:07] You know, a few years ago we came out with a branding. [01:19:12] We spent all kinds of money with our landscape, our streetscapes, paving our roads. [01:19:21] Just the general look of our city. [01:19:25] And then encourage our residents to pile up their yard waste to sit on the side of the street for five or six weeks at a time, for me, just makes no sense. [01:19:38] So the question is, do we want to use the taxpayers' money for, you know, $800,000, $900,000 a year for the city to pick it up weekly? [01:19:50] Do we want to increase our fees by $700,000 to $800,000 a year to do that? [01:19:57] I don't think that's a good idea. [01:20:00] I think, you know, there's an educational program for our residents to understand that their yard waste can be bagged and picked up and that they're currently paying for it. [01:20:13] And I certainly understand the availability for people to want to have mulch available. [01:20:19] And I like our mulching program. [01:20:22] I think there's a way that, you know, with the city, what, you know, the amount of landscape we have to take care of in our parks and our city properties that we could take care of that. [01:20:35] And that would provide enough mulch for our city residents to utilize. [01:20:39] Because if I'm not mistaken, we end up each year paying to have our mulch, you know, moved off our property to somewhere else in the county. [01:20:50] Is that true? [01:20:51] Right now, our area does extend outside the city limits because the permit that we have, it's regulated through the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. [01:21:02] And it's actually a transfer site, which dictates to us to be able to keep that permit active. [01:21:07] Whatever comes in has to go out. [01:21:10] And so the amount collected right now is not something that city residents on their own would be able to accumulate and keep that permit active the way it's supposed to. [01:21:23] So our limits right now with what we do is we go up to Ridge Road. [01:21:28] Or no, we go up to Hudson. [01:21:30] We go down to Holiday. [01:21:33] We stay just west of 19. [01:21:36] And then I believe Rowan Road, it's either Rowan or Little Road, is our eastern boundary. [01:21:43] And if a county resident wants compost, we make a list. [01:21:48] And we try to do it as most efficiently as we can. [01:21:52] But that helps us be able to dispose of that excess compost that we have. [01:21:58] Because right now, we're collecting way too much. [01:22:00] And I'm sure a lot of that probably has to do with the illegal dumping problem that we have. [01:22:06] If we went to a program of weekly pickup at the residence, it seems to me that would eliminate the illegal dumping issue. [01:22:17] So I like the idea of the weekly pickup by the hauler. [01:22:26] Because I watch my neighbors. [01:22:29] I've talked to neighbors. [01:22:31] And some of them have adopted it to, you know, they got a palm frond. [01:22:36] Goes there. [01:22:38] Three days later, they cut down a little bush. [01:22:40] It goes there. [01:22:41] Then another palm frond. [01:22:42] And I know that they think it's a free service by the city, but it's actually costing money, right? [01:22:51] And they're already paying for a service for the trash. [01:22:53] If they just put that palm frond in their trash can, that pile greatly diminishes in those five or six weeks. [01:23:01] There's a compromise. [01:23:05] I agree. [01:23:06] I mean, I agree with you, Mike. [01:23:09] There's a compromise suggestion, which is yes. [01:23:12] But if a really green-minded person wants to take their trash and get it to the mulching facility because they have a big, generally, there's three or four big cleanups that occur. [01:23:28] When the leaves come down, monster piles, afterstorms, big branches have to be cut up. [01:23:36] There's a cost that we're imposing on everybody for the weekly trash pickup. [01:23:41] So our free service would be replaced with a cost, which is okay. [01:23:48] I'm with that. [01:23:49] My request is, and I saw this in Bradenton, that they have a two-tiered system for this. [01:23:55] If you can wrap it up and tie it in a bind, do whatever the hauler has to make you do to take it, that's fine. [01:24:05] I still like the idea of being able to say to the city, hey, I had a big cleanup. [01:24:11] Can I pay you to come and take it to the yard? [01:24:17] They have the equipment. [01:24:18] They do it with their own. [01:24:20] It could be nothing could sit there. [01:24:23] But it's like, by appointment, I would pay 20 bucks, 30 bucks, whatever, for that service. [01:24:32] And this has been something that my entire career, I've listened to the desire for the city to get out of this business for a while. [01:24:39] You're their best hope, because you've been pushing, and I agree with you, that it is, for most houses, it's sufficient. [01:24:47] But there are a lot of multi-acre, larger parcels that, and I saw it at that collecting system you have at the end of River Road there that day, [01:24:57] because I called to ask if it was illegal. [01:24:59] It was really a commercial company that had come into a house and cut all their palm trees and had a big monster. [01:25:06] Couldn't be taken by the hauler under their bag restriction. [01:25:10] So if the volume became too high, Mike, on an interim basis, I would like to see that service still be available, even if it's for a fee. [01:25:20] And we've always hated to put a charge on it. [01:25:23] We're doing it by this action, by having an extra add-on to the contract for the haulers. [01:25:30] And maybe it disappears in the savings, but that's my pitch. [01:25:36] I don't mind doing that, but I think there are occasions when that chipper could come in handy on a piece of residential property that could call and get it taken away. [01:25:46] I would agree. [01:25:47] I agree. [01:25:48] I'd be okay with that. [01:25:49] So there's a compromise. [01:25:51] Anybody else? [01:25:51] Could you please clarify that? [01:25:57] Well, I think I have a direction. [01:25:59] I didn't. [01:26:00] Yeah. [01:26:00] If you have your hauler, and say you have once a week pickup, you've got to do it on this day. [01:26:05] You've got to wrap it up with a cord, and it can only be so long, and all of the things. [01:26:09] They're not coming in with your equipment. [01:26:12] Correct. [01:26:13] So if there's a need for your equipment, which there has been in our town, and you have it, and you're doing it on your public property, you could have a service where we could call and say, hey, I'm going to need a pickup. [01:26:29] And it wouldn't be frequent. [01:26:31] It wouldn't be that many. [01:26:33] But you could provide that service to the residents. [01:26:35] They're used to it. [01:26:37] Some of these are big branches that come down in these storms. [01:26:39] We're a tree city. [01:26:42] And you have a storm, a hurricane, you're still having to be prepared. [01:26:46] You've got the chainsaws to do the work yourself. [01:26:49] Residents do the work themselves on some of these larger properties. [01:26:52] Let me give you a better example. [01:26:54] If I trim my cluster palm, I'm going to have a stack. [01:26:59] And it's going to be bigger than what I'm going to be putting into garbage cans for the next two months. [01:27:05] But if I can stack that up in a pile on my driveway and pick up the phone and say, hey, I need a pickup of yard debris, you guys charge me for it?

   This text was generated automatically from the meeting video. It is not a verbatim or official record. For exact wording, consult the video or the city clerk.

4. 5Adjournment▶ 1:27:16
5. 4Communications