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   Discussion Regarding Proposed Mural Ordinance Revisions

   discussed

   Council held a work session discussion on proposed revisions to the mural ordinance. Members debated whether to allow murals beyond the downtown core (into highway commercial, mixed use, and residential areas), how to handle commercial/quasi-commercial content versus the sign ordinance, First Amendment concerns, completion timeframes for murals, and emphasized that final approval should remain with Council. No formal action was taken; staff was directed to gather more information including signage standards and how other cities handle murals.

   • direction:Council directed staff to gather additional information, including current sign ordinance standards and how other cities handle mural ordinances, before proceeding. (none)
   • consensus:Council expressed consensus that final approval of murals should remain with the City Council rather than be delegated administratively. (none)
   • consensus:Council expressed concern about extending mural allowances into residential areas. (none)

   📍cigar bar📍health department building downtown🏢Bissey and Associates🏢Cultural Affairs Committee🏢Fitzgerald's🏢Jilly's🏢Main Street🏢Mountaineer👤Councilman Altman👤Deputy Mayor Davis👤Janine Humphrey👤Jeff Starkey's mom👤Jim Bissey👤Katherine Starkey👤Mr. Murphy👤Mr. Peters👤Muldrow👤Tim#First Amendment / non-commercial speech#Highway Commercial District#Lake Wales mural program#Mixed Use Properties#Proposed Mural Ordinance Revisions#Safety Harbor mural artists#Sign Ordinance

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   [00:00:00] there's two kinds of murals. [00:00:02] I mean, I think the Main Street group [00:00:03] was doing the mural approvals [00:00:05] because there was a funding element, [00:00:07] like the city was paying some money. [00:00:09] So we have murals that people might wanna just put up, [00:00:13] and then we have murals that people [00:00:14] wanna go through an application [00:00:15] and try to get some money to help them pay. [00:00:17] We got murals that the city's Main Street [00:00:20] might wanna see and find a place to put, [00:00:24] because it was kind of like a mural program. [00:00:25] So do the murals come from the artists, [00:00:28] and then find a location to put the murals? [00:00:31] Or do the murals come from the building owners [00:00:33] who have their own ideas of the murals? [00:00:36] And then the ideas of the murals [00:00:38] have always been historical or biological, I guess. [00:00:43] Local flora, fauna, our history [00:00:45] was kind of what we restricted them to. [00:00:48] And I guess there's bunny rabbits and roaches everywhere. [00:00:52] I don't know, you never know [00:00:53] what somebody's gonna put on or how. [00:00:56] And that goes to our ability to control, [00:00:59] which our attorneys come and talk to us sometimes [00:01:01] about when someone wants to use their own money [00:01:04] versus using the city's money. [00:01:06] So to me, there's a lot for us to discuss. [00:01:10] And I also think that the appropriate process [00:01:13] is for us to identify those issues [00:01:15] that we need some help and advice on, [00:01:17] and then have those issues be responded to us [00:01:21] by our advisory committees [00:01:23] so that it answers the questions we have. [00:01:28] Because it seems like we end up getting more questions [00:01:31] or different issues to discuss [00:01:36] that might not go right to the topic. [00:01:40] The quality of the art. [00:01:44] I appreciate the mural [00:01:45] that Ordinance has been put in front of us. [00:01:47] And I'd like to talk with you guys [00:01:49] about what your feelings are. [00:01:50] But I don't see any problem with a mouse [00:01:53] sitting on a wedge of cheese in front of a cheese shop [00:01:57] or a baker's hat at a bakery [00:02:02] when we allow one quarter of the building's front [00:02:04] to be used for signage, [00:02:05] which quite frankly, a lot of it is very unattractive. [00:02:09] And simply just block letters. [00:02:12] So I would like to see us liberalize [00:02:15] and kind of open up the creativity. [00:02:18] But I don't know how we do that. [00:02:21] So I'm curious to hear your all's opinion. [00:02:23] And maybe mural artists [00:02:25] who were the ones that talked to us in Safety Harbor [00:02:27] telling us their experience in other cities [00:02:30] about what they would like to or wish to do. [00:02:33] And finally, our consultant talked about adding some color [00:02:37] and some variety and some sense of individuality [00:02:42] to the process. [00:02:43] So that's all that I have to share. [00:02:46] Mr. Murphy? [00:02:48] I'm gonna pass right for this minute. [00:02:50] Okay. [00:02:51] Deputy Mayor? [00:02:52] I want some numbers. [00:02:54] And the numbers I think come from the city. [00:02:59] The sign ordinance right now, [00:03:01] do we have a front sign ordinance? [00:03:03] Do we have the sides and the rear [00:03:05] part of their sign ordinance? [00:03:06] And how much of that is the sign ordinance allowed [00:03:10] based on the front, the sides, the back? [00:03:12] What have we got going here? [00:03:15] The numbers that you're requesting, [00:03:18] I'm not prepared to provide at this time. [00:03:22] But yes, we do have numbers that provide standards [00:03:29] of how much signage is allowed [00:03:33] and on each side of the building. [00:03:36] And it's based on the size of the frontage. [00:03:41] And I can provide those standards to you. [00:03:44] I just can't do that at this moment. [00:03:47] Because I'm saying if it's a sign that says [00:03:50] chopper's cheese in the front of the building [00:03:53] and then I put a big mouse and a piece of cheese [00:03:56] on the front, am I overdoing the percentages? [00:03:59] That's what kind of where I'm going with that. [00:04:02] I'll let Tim respond. [00:04:05] Well, when you start to talk about content in this area, [00:04:08] it gets tricky because you've got a lot of [00:04:09] First Amendment issues to deal with. [00:04:11] So, you know, the more that the ordinance [00:04:14] can steer away from content, the better. [00:04:18] And we do describe in the ordinance [00:04:20] non-commercial speech is what's required. [00:04:23] So you're treating it as an art. [00:04:26] But again, art is a form of expression [00:04:29] that's protected by the First Amendment. [00:04:31] So, you know, we have to look at these [00:04:34] and that's why I recommend that you continue [00:04:37] to have these come before you as the final arbiter [00:04:40] of what's allowed because you can exercise [00:04:43] some discretion that shouldn't be exercised [00:04:44] by administrative officials that don't sit at your level. [00:04:48] So you can look at them and hopefully your decision [00:04:53] will be more defensible than it would be [00:04:54] at an administrative level. [00:04:56] But in specific response to that, [00:04:58] if you had a sign and it said chopper's cheese [00:05:01] and there was a mouse with a cheese, [00:05:03] we would consider that all part of the same sign. [00:05:05] So it would all go towards your signage. [00:05:08] And that's where it gets a little tricky. [00:05:10] And if what I'm hearing is that maybe [00:05:13] you want to open that up so that maybe [00:05:16] there can be images that relate to the business, [00:05:19] but we don't want graphics, we don't want words, [00:05:21] we don't want text, you know, [00:05:23] we don't want you to add more words. [00:05:25] But if you want to add images that sort of [00:05:27] imply what you're doing. [00:05:29] Now we have ordinances that affect [00:05:32] the window coverage too, don't we? [00:05:36] So it's not only the sign on the top of the building [00:05:39] that says chopper's cheese, you might not be able [00:05:41] to put that mouse and that piece of cheese [00:05:44] on the window because it would cover too much [00:05:46] of the window, is that right? [00:05:47] Right, we do have restrictions on the amount of coverage. [00:05:50] I, you just brought up something. [00:05:51] I don't want to lose, from not only myself [00:05:54] but people down the road, I don't want to lose [00:05:57] that control at this level. [00:05:59] You know, we make it here, there's five of us, [00:06:01] there's five different opinions. [00:06:02] You know, if we let it go some other place [00:06:05] that could, you know, they're volunteers [00:06:07] in a certain situation, we're representing the people. [00:06:10] And so that's a different entity. [00:06:12] So I think it should come to us for that level. [00:06:15] That level I think it should come to us. [00:06:16] But, you know, to answer that portion of it. [00:06:19] But, you know, I really, if you've got, [00:06:24] you know, let's say Jilly's, you know, [00:06:26] here I had, you know, 30 feet, you know, [00:06:30] or 50 feet down the side of the building [00:06:32] with no windows and, you know, [00:06:34] and I could put some serious murals out there. [00:06:37] You know, and that, I could virtually have nothing [00:06:40] on the front of the building. [00:06:41] But if you were driving, if it was on the east side [00:06:43] of the building, you drove down the streets, [00:06:45] you could see the whole mural on that side of the building. [00:06:48] You know, so you could go nuts on there and whatever. [00:06:51] You know. [00:06:54] And actually, I'll give you an example. [00:06:57] As I used to hit some, at Christmas time, [00:06:59] I would have Santa Claus, this guy came and painted [00:07:02] Santa Claus and the reindeer and stuff on it. [00:07:05] You know, and actually Jeff Starkey's mom [00:07:07] thumbed me one year because she thought Santa looked drunk. [00:07:11] You know, but it was a bar, you know. [00:07:12] So, and she was right, you know, I mean, here, you know. [00:07:15] You know, so there's, you know, I mean, you know, [00:07:18] you know, those are there about six weeks [00:07:20] or something a month or something like that. [00:07:22] So there was, there's questions here I have too. [00:07:26] You know, I mean, you know, I could have one wild, [00:07:29] wild party going on in this, you know, the 50 by, [00:07:32] you know, 10, 15 feet, 15 feet high. [00:07:36] By 50 feet, I could have a mural down the side [00:07:38] of that building. [00:07:39] You know, and so we don't have some kind of numbers, [00:07:43] you know, as far as square footage per side, you know. [00:07:47] Or, you know, if we do, I don't know what they are. [00:07:50] So there's more questions here than I have. [00:07:53] Mr. Peters? [00:07:55] Yeah, guys, let's back up for a minute. [00:07:59] Because, you know, I thought about our last conversation [00:08:03] on this and I think we got the ordinance [00:08:06] and we do what we can get in there [00:08:07] and we start reading it and figuring it out and I go. [00:08:09] And since that time, and particularly after reading [00:08:11] the second edition, I'm thinking, time out. [00:08:14] What's going on? [00:08:14] Because I didn't, I didn't recall us asking [00:08:19] for a new mural ordinance to come for us. [00:08:22] And also, we got one presented and changed some things [00:08:25] and this one changes again. [00:08:26] And I'm trying to understand what [00:08:28] the Cultural Affairs Committee, [00:08:30] what are they trying to accomplish with these changes? [00:08:32] In other words, what are they, [00:08:34] what's the big picture going on? [00:08:37] There's obviously something that they thought [00:08:41] needed to be changed and I'm trying to figure out [00:08:43] exactly what that was. [00:08:44] Is it because we don't have enough murals? [00:08:46] They didn't like the murals we had? [00:08:48] They thought that we were too slow in approving murals? [00:08:52] You know, I'm trying to see what the objective is. [00:08:56] And in my mind, murals is still art. [00:09:00] It's not a sign. [00:09:01] We can have artful signs, but that's artful signs, [00:09:05] that's not a mural. [00:09:06] And certainly, I'm agree with someone's already expressed [00:09:11] here that the final approval on this thing [00:09:16] probably should rest with this council. [00:09:19] You know, a little bit of history when this, [00:09:21] when the mural project first got underway, [00:09:25] and I, you know, and I'm sorry, [00:09:27] I could have brought some documentation with me, [00:09:29] but, you know, Janine Humphrey served [00:09:34] as the mural coordinator and I think she served [00:09:38] on the Cultural Affairs Committee, I'm not sure, [00:09:39] but she was the go-to dog on the whole mural project [00:09:45] and driving it, and I can recall this, [00:09:48] that she just fretted and, you know, [00:09:51] worked about all this process of getting it approved [00:09:55] and the extensive work that she [00:09:58] and her other committee members went, [00:10:00] visited other cities throughout the Florida, [00:10:02] finding the artists, vetting the artists, [00:10:04] and getting the murals that we have. [00:10:06] And, you know, they settled on something [00:10:10] after a lot of discussion by council members [00:10:13] and their committee members and back and forth, [00:10:15] and they came up with the themes, [00:10:17] and I think the murals that's on there, [00:10:20] I think since that time, [00:10:23] I think the one on the cigar bar was added, [00:10:25] but all the others were done during that period, [00:10:28] and they've served us fairly well. [00:10:29] And I certainly understand the people wanting to say, [00:10:34] hey, let's do something a little different, [00:10:35] something a little more artist, and, you know, [00:10:37] that's, you know, art is the eye of the beholder. [00:10:40] But let's back up again and go back and say, [00:10:44] what are we trying to do here? [00:10:45] Maybe we got a couple of cultural affairs committee members [00:10:48] here to explain to them what they're trying to accomplish, [00:10:52] and let's go from there, because I don't know. [00:10:57] Let me correct you on one thing, [00:10:59] which is when the Main Street group took the trip, [00:11:07] and I reported back here on the council level [00:11:10] that they had gone on the trip, [00:11:13] and there were some things that were suggested [00:11:15] that might need improvement. [00:11:17] I remember Councilman Murphy saying, [00:11:19] I think we should look at it too. [00:11:20] So I think, to be fair, the council, or two of us, [00:11:25] had said, let's look at it. [00:11:26] Now, I didn't ask anybody to go into the ordinance [00:11:29] and change the administrative procedures [00:11:31] as much as I was interested in just, as you said, [00:11:34] you know, is this a stale, you know, [00:11:38] should we expand the ability? [00:11:40] And then to the Humphrey position, [00:11:43] that was a program, I think, of the Main Street group [00:11:46] to try to put murals in. [00:11:48] And so now we got a rule that tells you [00:11:50] whether you can have one, [00:11:52] whether you're part of the proposal to recruit [00:11:54] and do the official murals, [00:11:56] so as if the only murals that could go up [00:11:59] were the ones that were asked to be going up by somebody. [00:12:06] And then we have that whole other ball of wax comes up. [00:12:08] What if somebody says I want to put a mural on my building, [00:12:11] which is what happens in these cities [00:12:13] when the murals start going up, [00:12:14] people say I want to paint one, and I want to paint one, [00:12:17] and then it isn't a project or a program, [00:12:20] it's a, it's caught on. [00:12:24] I think that's, I think that's just a, [00:12:27] I don't know if you were on the council when that happened, [00:12:29] when we first started talking about it, I can't recall. [00:12:32] The thing that, or things that I would be concerned about [00:12:38] are the commercialization. [00:12:42] Much like Deputy Mayor Davis has indicated it, [00:12:46] there's a risk of these being used [00:12:51] to negate the sign ordinance. [00:12:58] That being said, one of the things that not Mountaineer, [00:13:04] but the previous coffee shop that had been [00:13:08] that corner spot had talked about [00:13:12] was painting a big coffee cup on the side of the building, [00:13:17] which I'm not sure if that's advertising or art, [00:13:22] but it didn't seem like a big deal to me, [00:13:25] although it was shot down at the city level [00:13:29] because it was not on the front of the building. [00:13:34] But I think if we liberalize this, [00:13:38] we're going to have some of those, [00:13:39] so we probably need to set some standards [00:13:41] as to what is and is not, [00:13:43] the mouse and cheese or the coffee cup, [00:13:45] I think being good examples. [00:13:47] To my knowledge, there is only one mural [00:13:53] in the city right now that is commercial. [00:13:59] And that's on Jim Bissey's building. [00:14:05] And it's tasteful, it has an old-timey picture [00:14:08] of the building and then has Bissey and Associates [00:14:11] on a little sign in the mural. [00:14:15] And I don't know if that just snuck through [00:14:18] or if somebody actually approved it in the day, [00:14:22] but yeah, technically that's advertising. [00:14:28] I agree with Mr. Altman. [00:14:32] I would have some issues [00:14:36] if we change the locations that are allowed [00:14:42] where potentially you're going to have people [00:14:45] putting up what may be quasi-commercial murals [00:14:50] in residential areas. [00:14:52] And I do have that same concern. [00:14:56] And I agree with everybody else that's expressed it, [00:14:58] but I... [00:15:00] positively do not want to give away final approval on this. I think these [00:15:06] things need to come to us. Yeah, residential I have a problem with too. I [00:15:10] don't see that. I, you know, people try, you know, try to, you know, dress the [00:15:15] neighborhood up and somebody decides to put, you know, everybody here would have [00:15:19] a different imagination of what they would put up there and that they [00:15:22] wouldn't approve in their neighborhood. So I'm not really going to go into [00:15:25] particulars on that one, but I agree that it doesn't belong there. But I also [00:15:29] have a problem. We have that boat scene, water scene on the health department [00:15:35] building downtown. It's had faces on there forever. You know, it was one of [00:15:40] the original ones, and they still haven't finished that. You know, we have [00:15:43] the problem with the railroad square or the railroad on Fitzgerald's, and [00:15:48] that's what's not been finished. You know, that's only a couple years. You [00:15:52] know, I'm not it's and I don't want to hear, you know, covid because you could [00:15:57] paint by yourself without covid being a problem, you know, but but why why [00:16:01] there hasn't ever been any other faces on that on that one on the corner, you [00:16:05] know, it was beyond me. So I think, you know, we needed to when we do address [00:16:08] this, too. We have to do with some kind of time frame. You know, um, I mean, [00:16:14] originally talked about, you know, maybe looking to making changes. I [00:16:16] agree with Councilman Allman. It was more about the art itself and maybe [00:16:20] expanding that a little bit to get some different things, you know, colors, [00:16:24] whatever. Um, definitely not procedural things. Um, and I'll just [00:16:30] say about the residential, you know, that that it bothers me a little bit [00:16:32] because you just I just don't know how that will play out. And I think you [00:16:37] have neighbors, you know, mad because someone put a mirror up, you know, and [00:16:41] they can see it. And then what's it going to property values? And then you [00:16:44] got potential buyers coming in. They're looking at like, I don't want to live [00:16:47] next to that. You know, it's just I think it opens up this can of worms and [00:16:51] administratively to for the city trying to, you know, regulate that. Um, this [00:16:56] seems like it would be a nightmare. That's my opinion. Um, as far as the [00:17:01] mural sizes and stuff, I think that's kind of, you know, you can have [00:17:04] different size buildings and walls. I think it depends on what it is you're [00:17:08] putting up. Um, that maybe should maybe determine that. Um, I don't know if we [00:17:14] should be boxed into a certain size of a mural. [00:17:17] And you could be, you know, that side of jillage, you could have a beautiful [00:17:21] sunset and rainbow by that whole side. But then, you know, the guys, well, they [00:17:26] did it there. How come on, you know, the bomb? We can't do it on the whole [00:17:30] side of the bomb, you know, [00:17:32] so you could. Well, I'm just saying it's, you know, I mean, you know, where [00:17:36] we where to where do we begin? Where do we end? That's kind of my point because [00:17:40] they can actually do it on four sides, three sides, you know, and then, um, you [00:17:45] know, as far as like, if it's a business and, you know, talking about [00:17:48] the mouse sitting on the cheese, I mean, I definitely feel like we that should [00:17:52] fall under the sign owners part of it. I don't know how much we can expand it [00:17:56] to include that because if we make it bigger, then we're kind of going [00:17:59] against the whole sign ordinance of trying to keep things a little smaller [00:18:03] and not blocking windows and that kind of thing. Um, so I mean, that's [00:18:06] something we'd have to look at. I think if you wanted to do them in the [00:18:11] highway commercial district, I'm not sure there'd be a problem there. [00:18:17] Heaven knows some of those buildings and highway commercial used to be [00:18:20] dressed up. [00:18:22] That's the other point I'd like to make to is that the more you open it up, [00:18:26] harder it is to close that door once you've opened it, especially when [00:18:30] you're talking about this free speech type of things where you have less [00:18:35] control over the content. So, you know, this proposed ordinance recommends [00:18:41] taking it beyond the downtown core. Maybe the highway commercial is [00:18:44] another district you might want to consider. But do you want to consider [00:18:48] mixed use properties like this is proposing? Do you? And certainly, do [00:18:51] you want to consider residential properties, which would be probably not [00:18:56] the typical type of thing you would see is having murals on residential [00:19:00] properties, but [00:19:04] back to Mike's point of [00:19:05] what? [00:19:07] Councilman, I think you made a great point, which is let's get to the pith [00:19:13] of the matter. What is it that we're trying to do? And none of us are [00:19:18] experts. I'm not. I went to Lake Wales and I saw the murals in Lake Wales and [00:19:23] that was a great thing. And it kind of was a Main Street thing. And it was as [00:19:28] you described it, how it occurred, where those have gone from there. I'm not [00:19:32] sure. But, you know, the most information I got was from a mural artist [00:19:36] who does them in many cities. And so this, to me, means how are other cities [00:19:42] dealing with this as well? And I would love to have more information, more [00:19:47] than I would rush to complete it, if that is agreeable with you. You know, [00:19:54] how is this best going to work so that we're seen as a city that follows what [00:20:01] Muldrow said, which would be nice if it was a little more color. But it's [00:20:04] kind of cool that we get to see these scenes of our own city and these [00:20:08] historic things, I think, are great. I love them. But if somebody wants to put [00:20:13] some Peter Max thing on the side of a big blank wall, I think it might improve [00:20:20] it and make the city look interesting if it was done right. But how do you say [00:20:25] to do it right? So, I mean, it's a tricky business. [00:20:28] Will you put a Campbell soup? That's exactly where my head was at. [00:20:31] Exactly where my head was at. I don't know how much we want to regulate. [00:20:41] And the sign issues, to me, we brought down monument signs. Katherine Starkey [00:20:46] brought up the sign ordinance. Our sign ordinance is more restrictive than the [00:20:50] counties in a lot of ways. But to the degree that, you know, signs versus [00:20:59] murals, I think the nice, neat, good-looking signs are great. But then we [00:21:05] got people putting those sandwich boards out, which someone says, you need to do [00:21:10] that. And the business is coming in saying they need all the [00:21:14] attention and business they can get. So anything we do to restrict it is going [00:21:18] to be seen as trying to hold them back from trying to fulfill their... [00:21:23] We only allow one per business, so that's, you know, that we did a [00:21:28] while back, too. Even since the last time we talked about this, I've noticed a [00:21:34] fair number of snipe signs showing up for businesses. And I won't call anybody [00:21:42] out, but they've definitely done it, including in the median on Main Street. [00:21:51] Well, if I had my way, we'd take all of the benches. I think I was the one person [00:21:58] voted against that. And we'd rent them all, and we'd put New Port Richey images, [00:22:05] and we'd use them like we do anything else, and just take over the benches and [00:22:10] down. Because we have a rule, you can't have a sign off your site. But then, and I [00:22:16] mean, Clendon Webb is my insurance agent, but Clendon's got, you know, a sign, Webb [00:22:20] Insurance or somebody else's. And that is the definition of what we don't allow [00:22:26] our own, in our own city, for anything other than a sign on the site. But we [00:22:32] have perpetrated that by having, like the buses, the county buses, [00:22:39] everybody's now, if we could put an advertisement on something, to make money, [00:22:43] you know. And so, it's a trick. It is difficult, you know. Everyone wants [00:22:50] attention. [00:22:52] The last thing is probably gonna be offensive to anybody. [00:22:57] We've had sort of a good initial, I'd like to open it up to Rich Melton, if he'd like to weigh in on any of this. [00:23:10] Yes, yes, I would. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. [00:23:18] To Mike's question earlier, you know, what does the Cultural Affairs want out of this? [00:23:25] Really, we're not into this to get into the sign ordinance whatsoever. However, [00:23:31] you know, if they are able to spruce up their business, well, that's all the [00:23:36] better for us. So, my point was, let's fix this so it doesn't look like we're in [00:23:42] an antique store in the city, and the whole antique store is the city. Let's [00:23:46] get us into the 21st century. Let's get some creative artists, get some new faces [00:23:53] on murals, clean up the walls, redo some of the city. That was our point. Let's [00:24:01] make it easier for an artist and a homeowner or shop owner, per se, to be [00:24:09] able to get an application that is complete from the city that tells that [00:24:15] person what they're going to need, what kind of paint they're going to use, make [00:24:21] sure that there's a spot on that form for a notary. Make it complete so when it [00:24:26] gets handed off to the next person, it just keeps going, that there's no [00:24:31] interruptions in the way we're trying to do this, and we all look like we're all [00:24:35] professionals when we're doing this. That's the extent of where we were going [00:24:39] with it. [00:24:42] That's not the problem at all. We have a couple of people in the audience, either of you want to weigh in on this? George? [00:24:51] Is that all Richard's comments? I want to make sure I don't override my chairman if he [00:24:57] had any other comments on the ordinance. I guess not. No, and I was hoping you'd [00:25:04] come up there to kind of get into this because you're far more superior about [00:25:08] ordinances than I. So, thank you. Yeah, that's debatable, but George Romagnoli, [00:25:14] 6235 Florida Avenue, one thing, and maybe we need a bit of clarification from our [00:25:19] city attorney in the ordinance, mistake in what you guys have been saying about [00:25:23] residential. It says mixed residential. In my mind, that is Main Street landings, [00:25:28] the Chasco Inn, places that have both commercial and residential in the [00:25:32] building. It's not a house on Florida Avenue. So, that's one difference that [00:25:37] may be a misunderstanding from our committee on that. Procedurally, I [00:25:43] guess, frankly, if I was a city councilman, I don't know if I want to be approving [00:25:47] rules during the meeting. I think that is a little bit below the level of [00:25:51] responsibility for a city council. I think that's a proper procedural item [00:25:56] for the city manager to do. It doesn't say it inherently in the ordinance, but [00:26:01] anything the city manager rejects could be appealed to the council. It doesn't say [00:26:09] specifically in the ordinance, but of course, that is a natural fact. So, if there's [00:26:11] something that the artist may not agree with. Now, of course, also the city [00:26:18] manager knows your mind. So, again, I think the city manager can properly [00:26:23] approve this without it going to hear and you discussing, you know, well the [00:26:28] arm is going like this and the sun is too big and all that stuff, getting into [00:26:32] the details of the of the art. I think you should leave that to staff and only [00:26:37] if there's something really severe, the city manager would always kick it [00:26:40] upstairs to the city council if they wanted to, but I don't think that's [00:26:43] necessary. The reason why also that we included the entire city, because the [00:26:49] entire city needs it. You know, we've concentrated on downtown so long and [00:26:53] downtown is great. US 19 is not. It is ugly, a lot of old buildings, a lot of [00:27:01] buildings that haven't been kept up. So, why not do it in other places on US 19, [00:27:07] on Massachusetts Avenue, other commercial quarters that we have. Expand this. [00:27:13] So, those were some of the reasons behind the committee's recommendations on [00:27:18] changing it. On the advertising thing, you know, again, not too keen on that. You [00:27:24] know, the mouse and the cheese, I can understand that, but, you know, the [00:27:30] places that have great mural ordinances don't have commercial stuff on it. I'm [00:27:35] thinking of about St. Petersburg, which probably has the best murals of any [00:27:38] west coast city that, you know, and, you know, especially in the areas of the [00:27:45] downtown and outside the downtown. They don't limit, I think they limit it [00:27:48] also to commercial, but, you know, there are beautiful murals that they've done [00:27:52] of vistas, of important people, historical people, seeing particular [00:27:58] Martin Luther King and others that they've done. So, that's the reason why [00:28:01] we've done that. So, those are the reasons behind why we are recommending the [00:28:05] changes to the mural, because we, as a Cultural Affairs Committee, we want to [00:28:08] see the beautification of the city, and that's the reasons behind the issues [00:28:13] that we have. Thank you. Thank you. [00:28:19] Mr. Mayor, if you'd allow me just some final comments. After, of course. Hello, [00:28:26] Melissa Smith, New Port Richey, Main Street. I'm gonna speak more on behalf of [00:28:31] the business owners and the artists themselves. When we put out the call for [00:28:38] artists to fix the mural that's at Fitzgerald's, I ended up getting a [00:28:44] fantastic response from many artists, and many that are locally here just in [00:28:49] New Port Richey or New Port Richey, and I kind of started... [00:28:59] When are we going to start doing more murals downtown? So, the [00:29:05] artists are... Oh, yes. Is that... Who's... What do we got going on in the [00:29:11] background? I think he needs to mute himself again. Oh, okay. It could be... It's my phone. [00:29:17] He can't hear, so he asked me to call him and put him on speaker. It's my phone. [00:29:23] I'll turn him off. Richard Melton? Oh. Sorry, Richard. So, we're hearing you? You're hearing me coming through here. I'm loud, I know. Okay. So, I think that's a great thing, and in my opinion, I [00:29:42] think we need to move a little quicker on maybe making decisions on the murals, [00:29:50] just because we have quite a few that are very, very talented, all in their own [00:29:54] way, all have different styles. Some use, you know, a lot of color, some... [00:30:00] just are, you know, they're quirky, they're fun, and they're raring to go, so that's on that sense. [00:30:09] But for the business owners, they're static. It's almost like everybody wants one. [00:30:18] Granted, you know, with the procedures, for them to get the okay from the landlord of the building, [00:30:26] I think what we do need is more clarity on that procedure to be able to [00:30:34] get it moving quicker, I guess. I don't know if anybody can answer that. [00:30:43] It would start, I would assume it would start with... [00:30:45] Let me ask, who's paying for the murals that people are calling and wanting to paint them? [00:30:54] Are they, do they have people already, investors? So, no. So, Cultural Affairs does have money [00:31:01] that they have set aside to be able to pay for the muralist. [00:31:07] Usually what Main Street does is we'll have some kind of sponsorship, so when it does, [00:31:12] when it starts and someone does ask to get permission to apply to be able to have a mural, [00:31:19] then that's when our work kind of starts, where we start to be, you know, ask investors, [00:31:23] ask for sponsorships. And how it happened with Fitzgerald's was you could have your profile [00:31:31] on the mural, and people paid a certain amount of money to be able to get their picture on there. [00:31:39] But when we're talking this art, that's not something you can fund, so it kind of becomes [00:31:47] a little, you know, what else could we do to be able to get the funds for this? And we would be [00:31:52] all about it, and also working with Cultural Affairs. So, I've been talking with Richard for [00:31:58] a couple months now, just getting ideas of what we can get to bring to this community for the [00:32:05] murals and for the artists. So, if I'm not mistaken, Main Street has a design committee? [00:32:11] Yes, we do, yes. And currently that's what it's set up, is your design committee kind of [00:32:16] vets these murals initially, right? Correct, yes. [00:32:21] You talked about a call for art, so you're asking for people to come? Yes. To do murals? [00:32:28] Correct. And we did hire a fantastic artist for Fitzgerald's. I believe she started [00:32:35] this week, so. Do you know who put the one on the cigar bar? I do not know. [00:32:45] That was not somebody that has contacted me. You don't know who put the one on [00:32:52] Lewin? That was Jodi Pearl. Okay. Ms. Maynard, you had something? Well, I did want to speak [00:33:00] about location and placement, in particular, of murals. What we have in the downtown is very nice, [00:33:10] and I don't want to discredit that by any means, but we have an incomplete system of murals, [00:33:18] and what we need to do is to establish a master plan for murals in the downtown area, [00:33:27] and to follow that master plan, and to complete the master plan, particularly before we grant [00:33:35] artistic license, without the benefit of any real standards, to the property owners along [00:33:44] U.S. Highway 19. I think that would be a big mistake for us, particularly in respect to the [00:33:53] fact that they haven't really demonstrated any real standards for property maintenance in general [00:34:02] over the last decade. Is there fine-tuning of the procedures that we need to work on? [00:34:12] We haven't received an application in such a long time. We haven't received any complaints [00:34:19] about the process, so I'm surprised that so much effort is being put into changing the process. [00:34:29] I noticed that the murals, you know, some aspects of the ordinance made great sense to me. It is, [00:34:36] you know, made some definitive requirements about the quality of the paint, and the upkeep, [00:34:43] and so forth like that, as well as the permission of the property owners, and all that. [00:34:49] You know, I think that was a good portion of a good addition to the ordinance, as well as, [00:34:58] you know, expanding the subject matter of the murals. But I'd have to agree with you, [00:35:09] City Manager, about developing a master plan, and, you know, can probably have a plan and say, [00:35:16] these are optimal mural locations. Now, the property owner may not want it, the business [00:35:22] owner may not want it, but as an overall picture, I like that idea going, you know, set to go [00:35:31] forward. It seems like some other cities I've visited that has what I think are attractive [00:35:38] murals, and a wide variety of them at that, too, is, you know, you'll see two or three together, [00:35:44] and it catches your eye, and then you don't, and you catch another one, and it catches your eye. [00:35:47] So, it's, you know, I don't know if that was by plan or by accident, but it certainly was [00:35:52] very attractive. I think, specifically, I'm pointing to, like, St. Petersburg, for example, [00:35:57] and, you know, I'm all about, you know, you know, having art, but if we turn around and, [00:36:06] you know, you can go to, you know, some of the prestigious galleries, wherever you might go, [00:36:11] displays art. They don't just put it all up in one wall, and bumper to bumper, and all that. It's [00:36:18] spaced. It's, you know, there's some techniques that's used to enhance that. Some of the galleries [00:36:26] that are, that house art, are themselves a piece of art, right? So, I think that, you know, [00:36:35] you know, too many, too quick, and not the right places could actually be a backfire. So, I really [00:36:40] like the idea of some kind of a strategic master plan, and then you've got a situation where, [00:36:47] if we can develop that and throw that out to our business owners, our downtown property owners, [00:36:54] artists that know that, hey, there's a canvas. I got an idea for that canvas, [00:36:59] and they can go accordingly. So, I could see where that could be useful, you know, [00:37:06] coming immediately to mind, Railroad Square, east of Grand. There are a lot of very plain [00:37:13] building backs that would definitely be improved with some artwork. Mr. Altman, you had some? [00:37:21] Well, I just want to kind of clarify my understanding of how our city's committees [00:37:28] work, and what I think is a misnomer here, which is, and I appreciated everything Richard said, [00:37:37] and his encouragement to us, which is what committees are supposed to do, [00:37:43] but the one thing is, we don't fund activity through committees generally. We're seeing it [00:37:50] in a number of committees where they're actually incurring expenses, getting sponsors, whether, [00:37:56] and it's a great thing, like the Loquat Festival, which, by the way, I think the loquat could be [00:38:01] our symbol, and we could let residents put a loquat on their house, because that's what Dunedin [00:38:06] does, where the oranges are in Safety Harbor. A lot of cities have a little thematic sort of seal, [00:38:13] so to speak, or something, and so there might be a place for some art in some of the residential [00:38:19] areas, but back to the point, we've allocated $800,000 a year for the next two years [00:38:25] to implement the improvements that Muldrow said to do, which include signage or lighting, [00:38:34] shade, and we had all of those drawings that were done. What would the Bourbon on Main look like? [00:38:41] And I remember him here talking about murals, so nothing works better for a council than to have [00:38:47] an expert tell us where, to your point, Mike, where some of these things might be, and to allow us to [00:38:54] have an initiative to bring murals back and to fund them, because this idea that there's money [00:39:01] in the Cultural Affairs Committee budget is wrong. The money is in the City Council budget, and we [00:39:07] look to Cultural Affairs or Main Street or anyone else to help recruit and promote and bring it to [00:39:13] us. So that's the important discretion that I have between how all this works. We appreciate [00:39:22] all the volunteers that come to us, but we've allocated money. Those groups are saying, [00:39:29] get up and do something, so it comes back to us, and we've allocated, we've done the research, [00:39:36] we've had the advice. I think it's the perfect time for us to open up and say, [00:39:41] here's, let's get the list of storefronts, and not only the murals, but our advice also was, [00:39:49] do you remember what they did with Bourbon on Main? They said, here's the one picture where we [00:39:54] take that just solid color, cement-looking color, and put a band on it, and they had a number of [00:40:03] examples in that report that went through the town, and that's what the guy said on the retail, [00:40:11] how in two years we could become a retail place. So they told us we could do it. We got the money. [00:40:17] This should be a part of that overall program, and I think it would be a great public relations [00:40:24] win, and it would help these businesses that are asking why people aren't coming downtown. [00:40:30] So I think I would agree it's time for us to do things. I don't know that by saying we could take [00:40:36] our time on the ordinance to get it right during the time when we're putting this program together, [00:40:43] Debbie. Maybe you can respond to what you're planning to do with that, how we're going to [00:40:47] discuss what we're going to do with the funding of the shade, and the drawings, and the upgrade of our [00:40:55] commercial to help those bars and restaurants that were affected so much that that rescue money is [00:41:00] for. I'm not prepared at this time to discuss it, but I certainly will discuss it fully [00:41:07] with the city council once I have a program to roll out for the use of those funds. But in general, [00:41:14] you described the types of improvements that we plan to implement through the use of funds. [00:41:21] I agree with the having a master plan for that. I think it'll solve a lot of [00:41:29] problems, answer a few questions on things, and that way we have a framework to work out of. [00:41:36] Because right now it's kind of seems like it's out there, but I like that idea. Let me go back to [00:41:43] your original statement. You gave about three or four different things and see if we covered each [00:41:48] one of them. Okay, talk about content. That would be for more than that. Okay, we've discussed that one. [00:41:58] Right, yeah, that was one of them. And we also talked about citywide or not, or whether to keep [00:42:05] it in the downtown core. Well, the only place that we opened it up really, well we didn't, [00:42:11] none of us went with residential, but we did kind of look at 19. You know, so if you're going to do [00:42:16] a master plan, we might take a look at a couple areas. Certainly, I would agree with, you know, [00:42:22] your comment that we need to have some standards before we tell the folks on 19 to open. Right, [00:42:27] right, right. But if you have a master plan, then you would pick, you know, like a couple ideas [00:42:36] here. Like, you know, your interest draws you into this. So, you know, so okay, we've discussed that [00:42:44] one, right? I think is anybody else want to add to that? Well, I just would say to your residential [00:42:48] comment, I think that the city is not going to fund and promote residential murals. And I think [00:42:55] that by us establishing what a mural is with these high standards and these agreements and [00:43:00] other things, that we might be able to use that as a sense of control. But I don't think we have [00:43:06] any prohibition that's existing now. And I'm not sure that there's a law that affects the few houses [00:43:14] that are already out there that have murals. Because we do have some residential houses that [00:43:19] have murals painted on them. Nobody's complained, and we are asking them to take them down. So, [00:43:25] I don't think public relations wise, this is the best time to go after that. I think we could just [00:43:31] ignore it, but not approve it or put it into murals. I don't know what we do about free expression, [00:43:40] and we don't have the paint colors, get approval of the Homeowners Association. Somebody painted [00:43:47] a doggone tree on Grand Boulevard, what the whole doggone tree, like an oak tree, right between [00:43:52] Delaware and Illinois or something, which was offensive to me. But, you know, I didn't see that [00:43:59] we had any rule against painting a tree. No, it was an oak or something. So, what else did you bring up? [00:44:06] What was the other thing you said? It was the districts, which you did cover. Oh, okay. [00:44:10] Okay, I thought there was one more. And then final approval. Oh, final approval, there you go. [00:44:15] Yeah, final approval needs to be retained by the city council. I think we're all in agreement [00:44:19] on that. We're all kind of in agreement to let it expand out a little bit to the multi, you know, [00:44:25] we've had a recommendation to allow it. I'd like to see the downtown area kind of complete, [00:44:32] and it kind of, you know, we get there, and we're providing it. We're successful, [00:44:38] and it's accepted, and the general public, you know, hey, this is cool, this is good, [00:44:45] then I think we can move out, because then we have really created a standard, so to speak, [00:44:52] of what we would expect if we're going to expand it out. You know, we all know Heaven's 19 can use a lot [00:45:00] and and thank goodness you know city did an excellent job with their landscaping [00:45:05] on the on the on the medians and I'm looking forward to some additional [00:45:09] landscaper you know as our gateway there but the I'm just I'm a little anxious [00:45:15] about getting out on 19 until we we can't wait we're gonna open up some some [00:45:21] new ideas and create some you know standards it's like you know once you [00:45:28] you know set the bar here and then you keep wanting to get it raised and then [00:45:32] you get it to a level then we okay but it's still you know could be for [00:45:37] forthcoming in the master plan but I also hope that thought and we'll get to [00:45:46] it as we but I don't see Chasco just who brought up you brought up Chasco in it [00:45:50] and Stonehenge are two different things there's no there's no residential in [00:45:54] Chasco in it's up yeah right but it's all it's all yeah but they're also [00:46:00] thereups they have a you know they have it's all commercial upstairs now I just [00:46:05] wanted to cheese shop and you guys are killing me let the mouse live get a [00:46:12] coffee cup instead I think one question I guess Commissioner Peters [00:46:28] Councilman Peters is you know when is it complete that's the question when is [00:46:33] downtown complete you or you know you've decided you want to keep the decision [00:46:37] power with the council which is fine you will be setting the standard every time [00:46:42] you approve a mural so I still would I would recommend not just let me get to [00:46:46] the downtown because frankly 19 needs more attention than the downtown does [00:46:52] and just saying that you're gonna do it downtown till it's complete I don't know [00:46:56] what complete is in your plan that you're gonna prepare the plan should be [00:47:00] where you want to target and where you want to fund the murals that's what the [00:47:05] plan would be and so that's the two things I would I would just comment on [00:47:12] your comments is that you know if you if it's part of the money that you want [00:47:16] to do to implement the downtown area fine say we wanted on this building this [00:47:20] building this building this building we'll talk to the owners but again I [00:47:23] would strongly recommend do the entire city because we've concentrated on [00:47:29] downtown so long and it's been successful but 19 is not and we need to [00:47:34] work on that I think that I think that's kind of what I said but I said that's [00:47:40] part make 19 part of the master plan you know whether we put dates on it or [00:47:44] whatever but just are not a solution to the challenges right do you have [00:47:52] anything else for the workshop that case I would entertain a motion to adjourn [00:47:56] thank you we'll come back at 7

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3. 3Communications
4. 4Adjournment