On the agenda

1. 1Call to Order - Roll Call▶ 0:00
2. 2

   Discussion Regarding the Alley Management Plan (AMP)

   discussed

   Council held a work session to discuss the Alley Management Plan (AMP), originally presented in March 2020 by staff and consultant David Fleeman of Genesis Engineering. Council reached consensus to not vacate alleys as a general policy (with rare exceptions like the lift station alley behind the hospital), to remove the petition/vacation flowchart from the plan, and to direct staff to begin reclaiming alleys that have been encroached upon by fences or other private uses. Staff was directed to revise the plan to reflect a no-vacation policy and bring it back.

   • consensus:Council consensus to adopt a policy of not vacating alleys, except in unforeseen specific circumstances brought forward individually. (passed)
   • direction:Direction to staff to remove the petition/vacation flowchart and 50% threshold process from the Alley Management Plan. (passed)
   • direction:Direction to staff to begin reclaiming alleys that have been encroached upon by fences or private use. (passed)

   📍Delaware Avenue📍Grand📍Indian📍Oleander📍end of Lafayette down to the river📍north of Pennsylvania, behind the hospital🏢Genesis Engineering🏢Long Leaf👤Altman👤Barrett👤David Fleeman👤Debbie👤Frank Starkey👤Pete👤Robert Rivera#Alley Management Plan (AMP)#Tug and Grunt right-of-way vacation#accessory dwelling units#environmental committee recommendations

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   [00:00:14] Very good. [00:00:14] The first and only thing on the agenda [00:00:16] is discussing discussion regarding the alley management [00:00:20] plan, or AMP, which is a lot easier to say. [00:00:23] It's much easier to say. [00:00:25] And we started talking about the alleys back in March of 2020 [00:00:32] when Mr. Rivera originally presented to us the AMP program, [00:00:38] which he had worked with David Fleeman of Genesis in Half on. [00:00:49] And at that time, they had conducted an inventory [00:00:56] of all of our alleys. [00:00:57] We have 5.2 miles of alleys in the city. [00:01:01] And they inventoried the condition of all of the alleys [00:01:07] that we have. [00:01:09] And they made some recommendations [00:01:11] on some alleys that should be vacated [00:01:14] and some improvements that need to be made on alleys [00:01:20] that they weren't recommending be vacated, [00:01:25] and methods of how the financing could occur if neighbors [00:01:33] were interested in vacating alleys. [00:01:38] At the conclusion of the discussion, [00:01:40] we didn't take any specific action [00:01:42] on either adopting the plan or not. [00:01:45] And so we're going to talk about that in more specific detail [00:01:50] tonight. [00:01:52] I think some things have occurred, though, [00:01:55] since we originally discussed the matter, which really brings [00:02:00] some additional value to how we consider alleys. [00:02:06] And one of those is the discussion [00:02:10] about accessory dwelling units. [00:02:13] I think that that brings great value to alleys [00:02:17] and improves people's value of having an alley. [00:02:25] I think that they're a great secondary use to streets. [00:02:30] I think that they can be used not only for roadway purposes, [00:02:34] but also for bicycling or for walking purposes. [00:02:38] And so there are other dimensions to it. [00:02:42] And we have had a good amount of interest [00:02:49] expressed by people that abut alleys in either making [00:02:54] some improvements individually, or making them collectively [00:02:59] as a group, or asking the city to make improvements [00:03:03] on their behalf. [00:03:04] So those are all things that I think [00:03:06] we need to discuss as a group tonight [00:03:08] at the conclusion of Robert's presentation. [00:03:13] Thank you. [00:03:13] And just to add to what the city manager was talking about, [00:03:17] the last time we met, you had given us direction [00:03:21] to get with the environmental committee [00:03:24] and get some input from them. [00:03:28] The plan that we presented was basically an effort [00:03:32] to try to have some type of uniform standard operating [00:03:36] procedure or guidelines to where, [00:03:40] if different residents came up and wanted to propose vacating, [00:03:47] wanted to propose paving, not paving, [00:03:49] that type of request to city council [00:03:52] that council had given staff a policy direction. [00:03:58] And we would have some type of guidelines [00:04:01] that would stay consistent for future council members, [00:04:04] as well as new residents, and new staff, [00:04:07] and that type of thing. [00:04:09] The plan that we presented, while I'm presenting it [00:04:12] to you again in its same format, the plan itself is just a base. [00:04:20] It's not a recommendation that staff is saying, [00:04:23] well, we think you need to do this with alleys, [00:04:25] or not do this with alleys. [00:04:28] We still feel like alleys should be dealt [00:04:31] with on an individual basis, and should eventually [00:04:36] come to city council as far as what type of decision [00:04:41] that they would want to make on individual requests. [00:04:45] Again, all this is is just a guideline [00:04:47] so that we could follow a process. [00:04:50] And I do want to just follow up on the point [00:04:53] that Robert's making. [00:04:54] When we did ask the environmental committee [00:04:57] for input, they had two specific recommendations. [00:05:01] And the first one was don't vacate any alleys, which [00:05:05] wouldn't be consistent with our recommendations. [00:05:09] We feel there's a number of alleys [00:05:11] that need to be vacated, in large part [00:05:14] because there are structures constructed [00:05:17] in the alleys, which would cause them to be impassable. [00:05:23] In one instance, I think there's a house. [00:05:26] Am I right? [00:05:27] A garage? [00:05:27] Carport. [00:05:28] Carport. [00:05:31] And another, a lift station, if I'm remembering correctly. [00:05:39] Just while we're on that one, is that carport, [00:05:41] did it have a permit when it was built? [00:05:45] Do we know that? [00:05:47] I'm not remembering specifically, [00:05:49] but I believe it was. [00:05:51] And I can verify that. [00:05:57] And so an introduction to tonight, [00:06:02] basically how we look at alleys is [00:06:04] they function in a block to block basis, [00:06:07] is how we look at them. [00:06:09] In other words, they don't extend from multiple streets. [00:06:14] We divide them up from street to street. [00:06:19] They're used for secondary parcel access, [00:06:22] which is a direct benefit to the property owners. [00:06:28] And from this slide, you can see our inventory that we have. [00:06:33] I know that it's hard to see, and I [00:06:35] think you've got it in your packet. [00:06:37] They've got them listed by what type of material, [00:06:41] or base material, is in the alley itself. [00:06:45] And so this study was done by the engineer, as well as staff, [00:06:51] multiple times, driving through the alleys [00:06:55] to take a visual look. [00:06:57] Now, some things have changed since then. [00:07:01] When the engineer and staff went through in the beginning [00:07:05] when we started this process, the alleys [00:07:08] hadn't been cut back. [00:07:10] Since then, we've had a contractor go through, [00:07:14] trim them back, and then we're actually, [00:07:16] he's on his second round now. [00:07:18] We're actually in the process of doing some trimming. [00:07:21] I had Barrett go out there the last week [00:07:24] and take a look at these alleys. [00:07:26] And he has noticed a vast improvement [00:07:28] as far as their accessibility, and what we possibly [00:07:34] could do with them. [00:07:35] So what you'll see at the end of the slides [00:07:38] is that the list of vacations that we thought [00:07:43] were not accessible has been reduced. [00:07:46] And so we categorize the- [00:07:49] Right on that. [00:07:50] Right. [00:07:51] Is it all right if we just add a little bit? [00:07:53] OK. [00:07:53] Just a question there. [00:07:56] From the first trimming to the second trimming, [00:07:58] cut back to the trimming, are people [00:08:00] picking up the care of them a little bit? [00:08:04] Did you notice? [00:08:05] From what I saw, yeah. [00:08:06] I mean, I drove through- [00:08:08] You gave it to them, then they would take care of it. [00:08:10] Yeah, it seemed to be that after we made the clear path, [00:08:13] that they did take a little bit more ownership. [00:08:15] I mean, there's some stuff that needs to be trimmed now, [00:08:17] but that's beyond their control. [00:08:18] It's the bigger palm trees and stuff like that. [00:08:21] But the majority- [00:08:22] It's fine, but not in the air, maybe? [00:08:24] I mean, not too bad, though, on the sides. [00:08:27] Some of them do need to be cleared, but you could- [00:08:29] I got my work truck in between all the alleys, [00:08:31] save for a few that we'll talk about that we're recommending. [00:08:34] I was curious if you did that, whether they- [00:08:36] Yeah. [00:08:37] 20-foot wide swat in 14-foot vertical. [00:08:42] Yeah, they seemed like they were in decent shape, [00:08:44] in whatever condition the base was. [00:08:47] You could get through there, yeah. [00:08:49] And so we categorized them into four groups, [00:08:52] and most of the alleys, we found out, [00:08:54] had some type of stabilization base to them. [00:08:58] And so the four types were the unimproved. [00:09:01] And from this photo here, you can see it's basically [00:09:04] overgrown, grass is taken back, [00:09:07] vegetation is taken back over the alley portion. [00:09:11] We had an intermixed base and vegetation, [00:09:14] depending on where you were at, driving down the alley. [00:09:19] Conglomerated asphalt, meaning you could see [00:09:22] at one point in time where the alley was probably paved [00:09:26] at some extent, and then over the years, [00:09:30] city crews coming in and just making patches [00:09:34] of pieces of defective work and stuff. [00:09:36] But no standardization. [00:09:39] You can see over here, towards that garage door, [00:09:41] you can see where the sugar sand's at, [00:09:43] where asphalt would just continue to fail as it goes down. [00:09:49] Excuse me, and then we had the type [00:09:52] that we called improved asphalt. [00:09:54] And these were mainly around the center of town, [00:09:57] around the downtown area, those types of things, [00:09:59] or some of the areas that some of the businesses [00:10:05] has taken over, so there's a little more traffic there. [00:10:08] And so we thought, okay, if you did want a vacation, [00:10:14] what would the process be? [00:10:17] And so this chart calls out the process that would be, [00:10:21] and the city would receive the petition. [00:10:24] We would verify those names. [00:10:26] If it was less than 50% of the people [00:10:30] that lived on that section, [00:10:32] then there's no further action required. [00:10:36] If it's more than 50, then the city sends out a questionnaire, [00:10:39] an official questionnaire to the owners. [00:10:42] We tabulate those results that we get back. [00:10:45] And again, if it's less than 50%, [00:10:47] no further action letter, and it stops there. [00:10:58] You say no further action. [00:11:00] So you have an alley that's been privatized [00:11:02] by one side of the street, [00:11:05] and the city has taken no action to maintain its alley [00:11:09] in any functional way. [00:11:12] You've made a couple of recommendations. [00:11:14] The one in particular is the Delaware Avenue one [00:11:16] that I had talked to you all about. [00:11:20] Which one? [00:11:21] Well, I'm not aware of that. [00:11:22] Oh, okay, yeah, and we've got pictures, [00:11:25] and we've got some recommendations on that as well. [00:11:27] So you're going through a petition process, [00:11:30] which would be different from you coming up to us [00:11:33] and saying we need to do something here. [00:11:36] Let's just assume that the property in question, [00:11:39] which has three lots across from it, [00:11:41] that all the other ones love it the way it is, [00:11:44] and say, no, we don't want to vacate it. [00:11:46] We've got that land, we're using it for ourselves, [00:11:49] and we've privatized it, they've run fences all the way up. [00:11:51] So maybe you're coming to a point, [00:11:53] and so maybe that's why we shouldn't jump the gun, [00:11:56] but just make a mental note that no further action [00:12:03] would work in that situation. [00:12:07] And that's what we're talking about [00:12:09] when I say that we're presenting this plan [00:12:12] and guideline to you. [00:12:13] It's in hopes that, I think, we have a good base. [00:12:19] But if, in our discussions, there's things, [00:12:21] like that percentage, not to jump the gun, [00:12:25] but some of the comments that Frank Starkey had [00:12:28] that he had sent back to you, [00:12:30] his reply was he thought that the alleys [00:12:33] were a asset of the city, [00:12:36] and that that percentage should be 70%. [00:12:40] I don't want it to be any percent. [00:12:42] I don't want to vacate alleys. [00:12:44] I'm just saying, either if you find one is not useful, [00:12:47] and you come to us, that's different [00:12:49] from you telling us how you're going to vacate an alley. [00:12:52] Because I had an email from the guy [00:12:55] after he bought the house, what's going to happen? [00:12:59] So I'm speaking on his behalf or on another. [00:13:03] You all had two or three where you said from the staff, [00:13:07] we recommend that you just, it's a dead end. [00:13:10] There's a big tree in it. [00:13:12] We don't want the maintenance of it. [00:13:14] It's got no use. [00:13:16] So it has nothing to do with the process [00:13:18] you're talking about. [00:13:19] But just to say it, I'm with Frank. [00:13:22] I'm not for vacating alleys by petition. [00:13:24] But I appreciate that you've laid out a process for it. [00:13:28] But I don't see why we would want to do that. [00:13:34] And I agree and I understand that. [00:13:37] And we're not proposing that. [00:13:38] This is purely just a guideline that if you decided [00:13:42] that for whatever case it was, it's already laid out [00:13:46] for you instead of trying to make one up. [00:13:48] I tend to agree with Mr. Altman. [00:13:53] The only exception I can give to that [00:13:57] is one that came in front of us 12 years ago. [00:14:05] Two of the property owners right on the river [00:14:09] approached the city about vacating the Tug and Grunt [00:14:14] right away from whatever street that was to the river. [00:14:18] And it made not a whole lot of sense to have the right [00:14:24] and I think it was at the end of Lafayette down to the river. [00:14:31] And we did vacate that and gave each one of them [00:14:33] a piece of it. [00:14:34] Although the flip side of that is we've got some other [00:14:40] examples of street right of ways that run all the way [00:14:44] to the river. [00:14:47] And we might not want to vacate those because at some point [00:14:51] we may have public docks or other features. [00:14:56] But it works on the same sort of basis as the alleys. [00:15:00] I don't know that we want to give away this stuff. [00:15:02] Unless it's just completely non-functional. [00:15:05] If somebody built a lift station in the middle of it, [00:15:09] we might want to talk, but. [00:15:11] And I think, too, to add to that, [00:15:13] and I remember when we presented the plan in the beginning, [00:15:17] you all came back with, which we didn't know, [00:15:19] but we needed to talk to figure this out, [00:15:22] was, okay, how did you feel about trees? [00:15:25] Was that a reason whether or not to vacate an alley [00:15:28] if there was a Grand Daddy Oak, [00:15:30] and the impression that we got back [00:15:33] that we felt where you all were like, [00:15:35] no, we can grow another tree. [00:15:37] The alley is more valuable. [00:15:41] So, again, those recommendations that, [00:15:45] like at the end of this PowerPoint, you'll see, [00:15:47] our recommendations when we first came to you [00:15:49] were, I think, about five or six, something like that. [00:15:53] Those have gone down to one now. [00:15:56] Based on the input that we had received [00:15:59] from city council on that go around before we went back. [00:16:03] Sorry for me to jump the gun, [00:16:05] but I think there are just one or two [00:16:07] little oddball situations that. [00:16:08] This is good, because it's giving us feedback [00:16:10] to where we can put something. [00:16:12] So the question, I guess, I would have for you all, [00:16:14] if we're going to do it this way, [00:16:17] then are you fine with having a process [00:16:22] in the plan to where if something came up down the road, [00:16:27] then you would know what the process was, [00:16:29] and by the time you ended up having your discussion [00:16:33] on whether or not to vacate an alley, [00:16:35] you would know how we got there. [00:16:37] In other words, you would know who. [00:16:40] The problem is that you're offering the citizens [00:16:43] a chance to take their alleyway. [00:16:45] And I'm on their side. [00:16:47] I don't want them to have that offer, [00:16:49] unless there's some circumstances, [00:16:51] like what your two examples were. [00:16:54] You know, there's a garage already built halfway through it, [00:16:56] or the other one was a lift station. [00:16:59] That's the only exception in my mind that I want. [00:17:02] You know, and that's actually why, [00:17:04] I mean, if you take a look at it, [00:17:05] that's why the Starkey's built long leaf [00:17:07] was patterned after the city, [00:17:09] so that people had access to their property [00:17:11] from the alleyways. [00:17:12] And I would take it a step further. [00:17:13] I'm not sure that I would even vacate [00:17:16] the one that's got the carport, [00:17:18] because at some point, if that carport comes down, [00:17:21] we want to reclaim our alley. [00:17:26] So, especially because it's right off. [00:17:28] Maybe go to the next slide, I guess. [00:17:30] I'm thinking, because I don't know. [00:17:32] Well, you wanted input on it. [00:17:33] I'm just thinking, like, is it a consensus [00:17:35] that you want to take the flowchart out [00:17:37] and that guideline of a way to do it, [00:17:40] if you're not interested in it? [00:17:44] Yeah, it's basically, how do I get rid of this? [00:17:46] There's really not a way. [00:17:49] Anyone figure it out from there? [00:17:51] And then, if the city comes to us and say, [00:17:53] we need to get rid of this alley, [00:17:54] or we think there's no reason for it, [00:17:56] that would be your own recommendation to us. [00:18:04] We have those streets over on Oleander. [00:18:09] We got a couple people fighting over them, [00:18:11] or have been over, and we decided not to give it to them. [00:18:14] So, that's going to set the precedent [00:18:16] right on down that street, too, [00:18:19] because they're every other house. [00:18:20] So, we'll have language in here [00:18:23] that states that the policy of city council [00:18:28] is not to vacate. [00:18:29] You know, I think the police chief over there [00:18:33] would love to have that access in certain situations. [00:18:36] You know, same with the fire chief, if he was sitting there. [00:18:40] You know, I would suppose that there's some unforeseen, [00:18:45] because we don't know what the future holds, [00:18:46] comes in and makes sense. [00:18:49] If someone writes a letter, [00:18:49] or starts talking to members of the council, [00:18:51] someone can bring it up, [00:18:52] and he can still be kicked around and talked at that time. [00:18:55] But to set, I agree with Pete, [00:18:58] set a, here's how you do it, [00:19:02] and then, we're never going to do it anyway, [00:19:03] so why publish it? [00:19:10] So, this is the city-initiated right-of-way vacation, [00:19:13] and there's actually one. [00:19:16] This is the alley that we were talking about. [00:19:18] It has the lift station right in the center, [00:19:21] and then it has the parking lot. [00:19:24] This is right behind the hospital. [00:19:26] I think it's just north of Pennsylvania. [00:19:30] That's the only one that's, when staff looks at it, [00:19:34] you know, but then again, [00:19:36] if you guys feel like you don't want to vacate anything, [00:19:41] that's fine, we just need direction. [00:19:43] If at some point that lift station gets replaced [00:19:46] with something else, that alley may become available. [00:19:52] It could, yeah. [00:19:53] So, we're not, we're vacating it to ourselves. [00:19:57] You know, I mean, really, [00:19:58] we're not going to use it anymore as an alley, [00:19:59] but because of us, [00:20:01] not because of the neighborhood or whatever. [00:20:03] But that's only one part of the alley. [00:20:04] See, it'll extend out to the other. [00:20:07] The next side. [00:20:07] To the next street, so now the question is, [00:20:11] it could be accessed from the other street, [00:20:14] and that lift station would be a dead end, per se, [00:20:16] so some property owners could have access [00:20:18] to rear their properties coming from the other street, right? [00:20:21] Right, backwards. [00:20:22] Coming from the east to the west. [00:20:24] Right, it could be, [00:20:25] we do have a couple alleys that are like that. [00:20:28] Dead ends. [00:20:29] That they dead end. [00:20:30] There's a parking lot there on the other end? [00:20:32] Mm-hmm. [00:20:34] It's the same alley, looking a different direction. [00:20:36] So, does the parking lot engage the alley as well? [00:20:40] Or is there a... [00:20:41] No, right now, there's a curb, [00:20:44] but if... [00:20:45] We could put a thruway. [00:20:46] If, yeah, that's always a discussion you could have [00:20:48] with the hospital. [00:20:49] They work well with us. [00:20:51] Go back to Debbie's point, [00:20:52] you know, that it's providing access [00:20:55] to kind of a small location. [00:20:57] If... [00:20:58] That's the density area down there. [00:20:59] Yeah, if ultimately the lift station were relocated, [00:21:06] then at that time, you could approach the hospital about, [00:21:11] hey, this would give another option for your people [00:21:14] to get out without taking their lives [00:21:17] into their own hands on Indian. [00:21:22] So, that really not... [00:21:23] So, our idea here is to not to vacate that religious... [00:21:28] Correct. [00:21:29] Just leave it vacant. [00:21:30] Just make sure we're all on the same page. [00:21:33] Well, I guess it leads to the other question, [00:21:35] because we have, you guys answered this question here. [00:21:39] This one is just a short little one [00:21:42] that goes parallel behind the police station. [00:21:45] But, so I got my answer on this. [00:21:48] We're not asking to vacate it. [00:21:51] We'll hold on to that. [00:21:52] But that alley is still opened up. [00:21:55] So, the next question, [00:21:58] the next question that we would have, [00:22:00] and I think we might have taken, [00:22:02] and this is a two-part alley, [00:22:05] and this is one where council often used to reside at. [00:22:10] And so, you've answered the question as far as, [00:22:14] if there's a tree, how important is that tree? [00:22:20] Obviously, they can grow back. [00:22:22] So, I would assume that you're saying, [00:22:24] no, let's maintain it. [00:22:25] Let's open it up to where it is. [00:22:28] But it would lead us to the next question. [00:22:31] And Pete, we did find out that that alley [00:22:33] doesn't go all the way through to... [00:22:36] To the end, it stops. [00:22:37] So, it would be similar. [00:22:40] Right, so it would be similar to the other one [00:22:41] that we just talked about. [00:22:42] It would be one way. [00:22:44] But you still would be able to access it and utilize it. [00:22:48] You can't access it if the city owns it [00:22:50] and other people are using it. [00:22:54] Well, that's our last question. [00:22:57] Back up one, back up one. [00:22:58] Okay. [00:22:59] Isn't that fence on the alleyway? [00:23:03] Is that the one where the fence is in the alley? [00:23:07] Yeah, it could. [00:23:08] Yeah, that's on the border. [00:23:09] To the west of it, it is wooded with bamboo and trees [00:23:15] and nobody can get through there beyond that level. [00:23:19] But an example would be, is a portion of, [00:23:23] when you get past your former property, [00:23:26] they've claimed the alley. [00:23:28] The fence that you're talking about. [00:23:29] And so, that's the next question [00:23:31] that we would have for you as far as policy goes. [00:23:35] You don't want to vacate any alleys. [00:23:38] Now, do you want us to go in and start reclaiming alleys? [00:23:41] Yeah, without a doubt. [00:23:44] Yeah. [00:23:46] I mean, the guy on Grand put a fence up. [00:23:49] We finally, after how many months, [00:23:51] got him to take a portion of it down. [00:23:53] You get a permit for that fence? [00:23:55] Well. [00:23:56] Well, that's my question. [00:23:57] If someone actually has a permit, [00:23:59] then there's going to be an issue. [00:24:01] We'd have to probably pay for it to do it. [00:24:05] I don't think so. [00:24:05] If you got a permit, you got a permit [00:24:08] just to put a fence up on our right-of-way or anything, [00:24:12] but it's still ours. [00:24:13] Now, you mentioned that alley doesn't go through. [00:24:16] Why? [00:24:17] Why does it? [00:24:17] I know why. [00:24:18] Huh? [00:24:19] I know why. [00:24:20] Why? [00:24:21] Thank you. [00:24:22] Because in 1955, when my father built his house [00:24:23] on three lots, and he wanted to put a tennis, [00:24:28] or I'm guessing, because I was only like not born yet, [00:24:34] but, you know. [00:24:36] I don't remember his father's house. [00:24:39] I'm young, and I don't remember either. [00:24:41] But I know the answer, because there was a connection, [00:24:45] and it went between the lot that my family had [00:24:49] and the lot and house to the west. [00:24:51] So, because of the way Lafayette turns around [00:24:56] as it gets closer, following the river, [00:25:00] it didn't go through, because there was a house on Lafayette [00:25:04] because our house was facing Lafayette, [00:25:05] so there was no throughway, so they designed it [00:25:08] to turn back to Delaware and come out. [00:25:11] And so, there is a vacated alley from the 50s [00:25:17] that had a left turn to it, which is why that house [00:25:20] is three lots plus a half an alley wide. [00:25:24] And so, I don't know how you reclaim that exit point. [00:25:29] I don't think you can at this point [00:25:30] after 80 years or 70 years, but that's what happened. [00:25:35] And I had the benefit of playing tennis in the backyard, [00:25:38] and I hesitate to say that it had to do [00:25:40] with the length of a tennis court, [00:25:43] but, you know, or the lack of anyone using. [00:25:46] But the bottom line is, there are a three lot property [00:25:50] and then three lots next to it. [00:25:52] The one at the end doesn't want the alley. [00:25:55] The next one doesn't want the alley. [00:25:59] And so, there was a point where they never wanted it. [00:26:04] And I'm okay, Chopper, with saying, [00:26:06] no, it's our alley, use it. [00:26:09] And you want a boat to come in, [00:26:10] or you want to build a pool in the future, or whatever, [00:26:13] you know, but the problem lies with the fact [00:26:17] that it's just been abandoned by the city [00:26:18] for, what, 50 years or something like that. [00:26:25] Oh, that's a difficult question, [00:26:27] but the new property owner, which, [00:26:34] property behind me, so, had a golf cart, [00:26:38] or he had a second home or something, [00:26:41] you could pop out the back, or whatever. [00:26:44] Well, that would raise us an interesting question. [00:26:47] If you've got half of an alley still that's there, [00:26:51] it's not wide enough for a garbage truck, [00:26:54] but it would be wide enough for a golf cart. [00:27:00] Or even a garage, where you park your car in the back. [00:27:04] I mean, I don't know. [00:27:05] But for that encroaching use on that. [00:27:05] Well, we'll bring it up to individual examples, [00:27:08] but we're still going with the basis [00:27:09] that, no, you can't have our property. [00:27:11] Correct, correct. [00:27:13] And the point is, yeah, we gotta go back and claim, [00:27:16] tell these people to move their fences back. [00:27:20] So the question is, how far back do you go? [00:27:22] Well, the question is, how much money does it cost the city? [00:27:24] Because that was the issue when the tree fell, [00:27:26] which is, the city really didn't have a policy [00:27:28] to put a lot of effort into clearing alleys. [00:27:30] It was kind of like the sidewalks in the old days. [00:27:32] You'd take care of your own alley. [00:27:34] And so then you got a $2,000 removal of a tree, [00:27:38] or trees that are in the way, [00:27:41] you have to take down and pay for. [00:27:43] So I think we would have to admit [00:27:47] that we would be supporting a capital improvement effort [00:27:50] to get these alleys back. [00:27:52] And we have budgeted some funds [00:27:54] for the clearing of the alleys. [00:27:56] Right, I think it's $25,000 annually. [00:27:59] Let's sort of roll forward, [00:28:01] see what else we've got to deal with here. [00:28:08] And so this is another picture [00:28:12] of how people have taken over an alley, [00:28:14] and those two homes there have made it part of their yard. [00:28:18] And it really doesn't look like it's an alley [00:28:21] if you drive right by it. [00:28:23] Well, as long as we inform them, [00:28:27] to the point when we actually pave it at some point, [00:28:31] then I don't mind them leaving it, [00:28:33] but just as long as they're aware. [00:28:35] Now, we've got this picture here [00:28:38] because the other thing that we wanted to talk about, too, [00:28:41] and didn't know how you felt, [00:28:43] but when we went back to the environmental committee, [00:28:48] they actually said that they didn't want [00:28:52] any asphalt paving of any of the alleys. [00:28:55] And if city council was to disagree [00:28:59] with their opinion or recommendation, [00:29:02] they suggested that if you improve an alley, [00:29:06] that you should only use impervious material, [00:29:10] or pervious material. [00:29:14] When we looked at Frank Starkey's letter to city council, [00:29:20] his recommendation or his thought process [00:29:24] was he wasn't against paving it. [00:29:28] He even came out with a couple of recommendations [00:29:31] on how you could have guidelines, [00:29:36] almost like what we presented earlier on vacation, [00:29:39] but you would have guidelines on if somebody came in [00:29:42] and had a petition with the people [00:29:45] that wanted to pave their section. [00:29:48] And so that's the question that we have for you all, [00:29:52] is paving of alleys, [00:29:54] because we see it as we've gone through the city [00:29:58] where there are certain [00:30:00] areas, the downtown areas, where it looks like that paving fits in pretty good, but [00:30:06] then there's other areas that are off of Wyoming that the homes just have that natural [00:30:11] look and you wouldn't want to do that. The one thing that we agree with, though, is if [00:30:17] you did decide to do something of that nature, whether it was paving, whether it was improving [00:30:23] them with some type of pervious surface, would be that there would have to be some kind of [00:30:29] survey work, some type of engineering work to where we would make sure that drainage [00:30:35] issues we wouldn't be creating. And then the other thing is, what I have seen is you pay [00:30:41] a little more for the pervious material, but to me, after a few years, yep, it starts getting [00:30:49] all, the grades are all over the place. If you do pervious concrete, an example like [00:30:56] that is now, or those blocks, now all of a sudden you've got the dirt that starts [00:31:01] to pile in them and that pervious material all of a sudden is just like throwing asphalt [00:31:07] down. The issue, and Frank made a good point of it when he talked to me, was that one of [00:31:14] the uses for these alleys would be to get the garbage trucks off the streets and picking [00:31:20] up their trash from the alley side. And I'm no expert, but he tells me that a garbage [00:31:31] truck is about the heaviest thing that you can possibly put on the road. And assuming [00:31:36] that that's true, you probably do want to have asphalt. The concern, and it was expressed [00:31:43] to me in a guy that emailed me today, was that if we do that and we put regular base [00:31:53] and asphalt down of a type that's sufficient so a garbage truck can drive over it, we definitely [00:32:01] need to pay attention to the potential drainage issues and make sure we've dealt with that [00:32:07] at the same time so we don't flood somebody. [00:32:10] I think as we address this, we'll probably be a long term situation. Start with some [00:32:18] of the ones that might have a base, already have some asphalt, redo them. It's like paving [00:32:26] of our streets all of a sudden. The people that are questioning will be like, oh man, [00:32:31] that's beautiful over there, for lack of a better term. And they'll want it done there, [00:32:37] so I think we'll change people's attitude because we'll have done it right with the [00:32:41] drainage, the look of it, and address the air and the foliage around it. [00:32:47] It would lead us to the next question though, because the residents that live adjacent to [00:32:55] all of those alleys are direct benefactors. They receive that from that alley, so is it [00:33:05] fair to pave their road, basically, or their alley, and then make the other residents that [00:33:13] don't have an alley share in that cost, or not? [00:33:18] I think, yes, it can be. Fairness is something that we discuss up here, and I think it can be. [00:33:25] I mean, it's over at Gulf High, doesn't necessarily go to Sims Park very often, but he's paying [00:33:30] for Sims Park, and he's paying for the quality of life in New Brunswick. [00:33:35] And I ask that only because of the direction from you all is exactly what Councilman Altman [00:33:41] had pointed out. There's a cost associated with it, and so if your policy was for the [00:33:47] city to start doing something like that, then now that lets us know that in the next [00:33:53] year's budget, or the year after that, that we start putting capital dollars in there [00:33:58] to go ahead and incorporate 100% of those improvements, or, you know, that would be [00:34:05] your direction. [00:34:06] Let me toss out just a wild dream of where this could work. We've got some streets that [00:34:15] are grossly oversized, Wyoming, Delaware, Montana, to name three. If we fixed up the [00:34:27] alleys on either side of one of these streets, one of the things that would become possible [00:34:36] because you're allowing people to park in in the back of their properties, you could [00:34:42] take a serious look at reducing the size of one or more of those streets and putting [00:34:49] a multi-use path right down there from Grand over to Madison, which is one of the things [00:34:59] we talked about for trying to link the Grand Boulevard slash Marine Parkway Trail with [00:35:07] the other trails that lead out ultimately to the Suncoast Parkway, and it becomes a [00:35:13] lot easier if you don't have a bunch of on-street parking on those streets, but to do that, [00:35:19] you've got to be able to have some way for these people to get in and park their cars, [00:35:23] and the alleys, I think, are an obvious solution. [00:35:27] Well, I had some time this weekend. It seems like we have more than five miles of alleys [00:35:35] because I rode them all on my bike. If you've got your truck down some of those alleys right [00:35:40] to my bike, you've got a monster truck. I picked up a flat tire, but I made it. [00:35:49] It became very obvious to me that a couple of things. One, that the alleys are an asset [00:35:56] to the property owners, and they're all different types of assets. Some of them, great backyards, [00:36:03] some of them for the boat parking, their other utilities, their classic car parking, [00:36:08] whatever carports, some for their junkyard. I saw some alleyways and backyards that would [00:36:15] make some of our neighbors up there in Shady Hills look like mansions, but nevertheless, [00:36:22] it was an asset to that property owner there. I also believe that because that's an asset, [00:36:30] whether it's perceived or not, that if it's maintained and can be utilized, that that will [00:36:36] in turn increase the property value of houses that have alleys that we've long, long range, [00:36:42] we might get a little bit more property tax for those folks. So is there a situation where some [00:36:48] kind of formula would work out there? But definitely the property owner gets a big benefit, but I think [00:36:53] the city does, too, a very incremental amount that will last for a long period of time. The [00:36:59] other thing that I will mention, and Robert, you talked about some of them near town were [00:37:09] paved and upkept and so forth. This is not 100%, but I saw a very obvious direct correlation with [00:37:18] the condition of the alley with the condition of the properties next to the alley. So that if you [00:37:28] had a messy alley, you had a lot more messier roads or messier backyards and upkept and piles [00:37:34] of junk and all that kind of stuff. Where you had the nicer alleys, you had more, you know, [00:37:39] it appeared to be more regular use of and maintained usage of alleys in and out. Now, [00:37:48] that was just a general conversation for me, you know, spending, you know, 10-12 miles on my bike, [00:37:54] riding up and around and trying to figure out where these went. So, well, yeah, dead ends. [00:38:04] That's an interesting observation. And so, I mean, that was, you know... [00:38:11] I'd like to play off of that logic, because one of the things I did was assessment methodology in [00:38:17] the CDD world, when you, they used bond money to build the infrastructure in the communities, [00:38:24] and then you have to assess the value to all of the property owners as they're paying off the bonds, [00:38:28] right? So, your point is well taken, and go back to us raising the bridge on Grand Boulevard, [00:38:35] you know, and we all had that discussion here that you raise the bridge on Grand Boulevard, [00:38:39] you're going to see property values rise, and our whole CRA strategy is to rising property [00:38:47] values. So, I think you hit the nail on the head there, Mike. I mean, and this is why I'm kind of [00:38:53] resistant to having this, what has been a cumbersome process. I went through for many years [00:38:59] these assessments, and we had to rent, we had to use the rec center to have assessment hearings, [00:39:06] and you turn neighbors against each other when you start asking who's for and who's against. [00:39:11] The next thing you know, you've created some problems in the neighborhood with people, I like him [00:39:16] and he doesn't like me. So, I think the city needs to take the leadership here and actually say this [00:39:22] is what we can afford to do, this is where our problems are, this is our process, and then not to [00:39:28] kick the can down the road, but I think it's premature to start talking about letting alleys [00:39:34] decide here and there when they want to put you through the process of all of those committees [00:39:39] and all of those issues that you have, and go like we did with the street assessment and say, [00:39:45] okay, how do we get the ones that aren't functional, where the properties are in worse shape, because [00:39:52] you're right, you know, you go through some of those East State streets and you see crap in the [00:39:59] backyard, and we've got code enforcement that's looking at the front yard, and we can hardly [00:40:05] complain in the backyard when our own crap is back there, you know, and which is what it looks like. [00:40:11] So the conversations, and you know, I had an opportunity to have some conversations with people who, you know, and I asked [00:40:17] them how they utilize alleys and what, you know, what, you know, just general conversations, right? [00:40:23] Some of them just use it to park their boats, some just, you know, but I think we owe it to all the [00:40:32] property owners about alleys to say, this is the plan. Now, whether it happens next year, five years from now, or eight years from now, this is where [00:40:42] this city's going, so plan accordingly. And if we can only do so many alleys each per year, budget-wise, and so forth, much like we [00:40:50] street, then I think what we do is we go to the alley people and let them apply. How many, you know, we got a hundred percent people that [00:40:57] want it now, you know, and we can kind of line up the alleys that we improve based upon the interests of the residents in a pecking order. [00:41:06] Hey, we're going to get to them all, but those who have the most, and I don't, and Pete, yeah, we can help with that, but I think the property [00:41:14] owner's got to put some skin in the game, and so, and then the willingness of them to do that might be one way we decide which alleys we do first. [00:41:26] The only thing there is, and I kind of lean a little bit that way, but also, we got assessments on our streets, and they gave us, except what word the company was, [00:41:38] it gave us the 20-year list of how we should go about so that we can stay on top of it before we're getting more deterioration. So I think sometimes if you [00:41:46] look at, you know, this one on the right, you know, it would be, it would behoove us to get that one on the beginning, you know, versus the one where we've got to take trees down, [00:41:56] and, you know, the one with the dead ends and some of those. But I think, you know, if we're going to have some kind of monies, you know, put into the package, [00:42:04] and we use our money the best, so we get the most product to show the public. They love seeing Congress done. They love, you know, seeing Madison done. [00:42:14] They love, you know, roads aren't pretty, but they sure were pretty when they were redone. [00:42:19] That has been amazing to me, how positive the response has been to the pavement management plan. Robert, question. We've got five miles, plus or minus, of alleys. [00:42:32] How many miles of streets do we have? [00:42:36] Seventy. [00:42:36] Is it seventy? Okay. [00:42:39] So it's a relative, the alleys are a relatively small component of the total asphalt we would have in the city. [00:42:46] So if we, if we were, if we, if we raised our assessments from $85 to $95, would that give us a sufficient amount of funds? Has anybody looked into that kind of numbers? [00:43:01] We've got more engineering and base work done rather than just re-assessing. [00:43:06] It's going to be kind of hard, especially these alleys that are totally overgrown with trees and everything, to kind of assess, assess them based on their alley versus assessing other people in different alleys that maybe not need a bunch of work. [00:43:21] I mean, I get what Calvin Peters is saying about skin in the game, but I almost feel like at first here, you know, I guess we kind of let these alleys go, so we need to kind of get them back up to snuff, and then we're like, all right, now, the alleys are back in shape now, after this, you can be assessed just like you do your streets and everything else. [00:43:41] Well, we don't assess streets, we assess everybody in town. [00:43:44] That's what I mean. [00:43:45] That's what he's saying. [00:43:46] That's what I'm saying, yeah, assess everybody. [00:43:47] Oh, okay. [00:43:48] So if you all don't mind us continuing this dialogue, because I think we're getting somewhere, because I can, your skin in the game argument and your argument, Robert, not argument, but your point, your point that there's a benefit, a special benefit, goes back to the evaluation of benefits, so if we drew a circle around all of the original downtown streets and said, okay, those streets are going to get an extra $15 a year because they have the alleys, [00:44:18] then that answers your question and your skin in the game question, and we do it in one shot, and we do it the right way in the alleys that we decide based on evaluation and engineering and how we should drive. [00:44:30] Let's see, but the more we, the more we, same thing, the more we dress up downtown, it's going to affect the people that don't have alleyways, it's going to affect their tax base, it's going to affect their, people want, you know, it's going to grow everybody, you know, so to sit there and say, oh, these people are the only ones that are paying the $15, I think the whole town benefits, just because. [00:44:51] Well, it's like the bridge we're paying for that benefits them or the rec center that everybody doesn't use or whatever, so. [00:44:58] Right, correct. [00:44:59] So I'm not. [00:45:00] Not really for having more skin in the game [00:45:02] when we're at eight and a half mills [00:45:03] and people are saying, what do I get for my money? [00:45:06] Some people think the only thing they get [00:45:08] is their garden. [00:45:08] But that's a different way of going, [00:45:09] we're working at the pavement, [00:45:10] I'm looking at the pavement assessment, [00:45:12] not the millage. [00:45:13] I understand, but it's still extra tax. [00:45:15] You know, it's still extra money. [00:45:16] It's a tax, that's how we address it out there. [00:45:17] And somebody will say that. [00:45:19] It's a big, full page. [00:45:19] Yeah, exactly. [00:45:21] But, you know. [00:45:23] I would say. [00:45:24] And then you gotta throw something else in, [00:45:25] because the alleys, when we have John the postman here [00:45:29] talking about what alleys we used at, [00:45:31] and we talked about garbage, [00:45:32] but we had this issue, I put my yard debris in the back. [00:45:36] So, I mean, I kind of want to go over to Mike's camp [00:45:40] that he got on the short end of the stick on, [00:45:42] on us kind of looking at how we pick up [00:45:45] all of our yard debris. [00:45:47] So if we had the alleys, which is, [00:45:50] and tell me if I'm wrong, [00:45:51] but aren't the alleys in that part of the city [00:45:53] that have alleys the ones that cause you [00:45:55] the most tree debris, piles? [00:46:00] If you had to say. [00:46:00] No, it's the landscapes. [00:46:02] But I mean, the actual trees in some of our lots. [00:46:05] Illegal dumping, yes. [00:46:06] No, forget that for a minute, though. [00:46:08] But I mean, if we had replaced them with those boxes [00:46:10] you get at Home Depot, where you would drop off, [00:46:14] not a box, but these big things, [00:46:15] and then throw all the stuff in, and they pick it up. [00:46:18] I mean, we could be picking up, [00:46:20] which is what you wanted to do, the yard debris, [00:46:23] with these super Home Depot bags, or whatever. [00:46:27] Because you can't fit most of the branches [00:46:30] into a garbage bag, and it's a plastic, and all that stuff. [00:46:33] But what if you tried to work the functionality of the alley [00:46:37] into the yard debris pickup process, [00:46:42] and maybe, since you've got, [00:46:44] you've told us a couple hundred thousand dollars a year [00:46:46] you're using to pick up the yard debris. [00:46:48] So maybe we could say, well, we'd be better off [00:46:51] to fix the alleys, and identify a better way [00:46:54] that the residents could either grab the bag, or do something. [00:46:58] Yeah, but that's five miles out of 70 miles worth of yard debris. [00:47:03] I mean, it's a good thought, I think we address that. [00:47:06] Let's figure out what we can do with the alleys, [00:47:07] and then we'll figure out how we can utilize them. [00:47:09] Right, and I think, too, like the mayor had said, [00:47:12] I mean, when we look at the equation of five miles [00:47:15] versus 70 miles, maybe staff gets an estimate [00:47:20] on what it would take, and then you see that number, [00:47:24] and then you make your decisions on [00:47:26] if you want skin in the game, [00:47:28] or if you have funds here, or funds there, [00:47:31] or can it be incorporated into the street projects [00:47:35] that we do every year, that we just now, [00:47:37] we throw two alleys a year into that, [00:47:40] and you're not going back and reopening [00:47:42] your pavement management plan. [00:47:45] Now, I'm sure, legally, we're gonna have to look [00:47:48] and see what we can do and what we can't do, [00:47:51] because we've already been in that plan now for five years, [00:47:54] so I think if staff could get you the numbers, [00:47:58] that might make some of the decisions [00:48:00] that you're thinking about. [00:48:01] I think that's what we're here for, [00:48:03] is gonna give you guidelines on where to go down the street. [00:48:06] So, yeah. [00:48:07] And maybe, Chopper, you would, I wouldn't say, [00:48:09] give a little bit on your hard position [00:48:13] on the alley maintenance program, [00:48:15] on the design engineering, [00:48:18] because the city used to pay it [00:48:20] when we assessed everybody directly, [00:48:22] and I know you said it, so you feel obligated [00:48:24] to hold onto that thought, [00:48:26] but there's no legal reason we couldn't use [00:48:29] the alley maintenance program, [00:48:31] or not the alley, the road maintenance program, [00:48:33] to pay the full costs of the roads, [00:48:36] if we did an analysis to say, [00:48:38] hey, we've been doing so good, [00:48:40] that we don't have all of the, [00:48:42] maybe we need to re-look at how well that program's going, [00:48:46] and whether there's the ability to legally fund [00:48:50] what you can legally fund at that rate. [00:48:53] In that, in short, saving us a lot of money. [00:48:55] Are you trying to save my... [00:48:57] $175,000 per year. [00:49:00] Well, yeah, but I'm saying, what I'm saying, [00:49:02] are you referring to my saying, [00:49:03] 100% of the money goes to the pavement itself? [00:49:06] Pavement itself, to the material. [00:49:08] And you know, I mean, in a typical project, [00:49:10] it includes everything, [00:49:11] and we always took that out when we assessed people. [00:49:15] And so when we want, but it's become so popular, [00:49:18] and I don't think it's a crawfishing back away, [00:49:21] but it was never embedded in any of the law to say, [00:49:26] let's use the pavement program to do the paving, [00:49:29] where else can we get some money? [00:49:30] The other place we should get money [00:49:32] is in your budgeted street maintenance division, [00:49:37] cost that you've used to do so much patching. [00:49:40] So the argument when we first started it was, [00:49:42] if we get all the roads in shape, [00:49:44] we don't have to have that road crew out there [00:49:46] with its patching as much as it used to. [00:49:49] Because you were chasing patches and potholes [00:49:52] every time the rain came. [00:49:54] Between your drainage improvements [00:49:56] and your road improvements, you know, [00:49:58] I think it goes back to you guys again to say, [00:50:00] how can we do the best we can do? [00:50:02] But I think you'd see more of a return [00:50:04] if you looked at your local option gas tax, [00:50:07] because the more we've been putting down [00:50:11] so much more asphalt, that we're getting more money [00:50:14] from that end, and that might be used [00:50:17] to do what you wanted to do. [00:50:19] Well, because, you know, to hold that thought for a minute, [00:50:23] because there was some discussion at some point in time [00:50:27] that we've got one more cycle to go [00:50:29] to get the roads up to an acceptable level. [00:50:34] And then we were gonna be able to go more or less on, [00:50:39] rather than a repair, a maintenance level. [00:50:43] To repay by neighborhoods by neighborhoods [00:50:46] in a more cost-efficient method. [00:50:48] But also there was some discussion about, [00:50:50] at that time also, take a look at sidewalks [00:50:54] along those roads. [00:50:56] And I don't, you know, I think there's a lot of sidewalks [00:50:58] that need to be looked at and repaired. [00:51:01] So. [00:51:02] Yeah, big time. [00:51:03] So I'm not so sure about taking money from sidewalks. [00:51:06] Yeah, but it's all about trying to find the money [00:51:10] and move it around, right? [00:51:11] When you start talking about sidewalks, [00:51:12] we discussed X amount of months ago [00:51:14] that there's four of the main streets downtown [00:51:17] between, you know, just south of, you know, [00:51:20] let's say Missouri or something like that, [00:51:22] that don't have any sidewalks. [00:51:23] You know, and they're in the main downtown area. [00:51:26] Yeah, and those are streets, again, [00:51:28] that if we put them on a diet, [00:51:31] you've got room for sidewalks, easily. [00:51:35] Robert, the other, and everyone hates when I mix things, [00:51:39] but the other thing, and you mentioned it, is drainage. [00:51:41] So when you start looking at these roads and pavement, [00:51:43] maybe you have drainage issues. [00:51:45] So I just want to take a trip down memory lane [00:51:47] about drainage, too, because I mentioned this to Debbie [00:51:50] when I spoke to her the last time. [00:51:52] Early in my career, when you would use CDBG money [00:51:55] to fix drainage, I was like, [00:51:57] damn, I want something more upfront and visible, you know, [00:52:01] and drainage was always boring. [00:52:03] But now, drainage has become such a huge factor [00:52:06] with the sea level rise and all the other stuff. [00:52:09] There is no more, I mean. [00:52:11] But when we did Marine Parkway, for example, [00:52:13] the engineers came in, and they wanted us [00:52:15] to do something huge, and when we talked to them, [00:52:20] it was like the ponding never got into the houses [00:52:24] and created damage to the houses. [00:52:28] And, you know, somebody buys a house in a low-flooding area, [00:52:33] and they know a couple of them, and they start complaining [00:52:35] because the flood happens. [00:52:38] But it's just, so you've had a lot of attempt over time [00:52:41] to solve people's problems. [00:52:43] This goes back to spending money [00:52:44] to benefit somebody particular. [00:52:46] Didn't stop the road from going through, [00:52:48] you just had to wait for the rain to drain off. [00:52:50] But you pick problems all the time, [00:52:54] and go out and try to identify the worst ones [00:52:58] and try to affect them and fix them. [00:52:59] So that's kind of my final comment, [00:53:01] is that we have some big problems, [00:53:04] and it creates hassles, and neighbors get angry, [00:53:06] and you look at it, and that's the way I feel. [00:53:11] Offer your street there, saying maybe [00:53:13] that could be done first, and I'm saying [00:53:17] maybe the one where the neighbor's really aggravated [00:53:19] and the city hasn't done anything is the other side. [00:53:23] So you've got to attack the problem from both ends, [00:53:25] kind of, you know, where the... [00:53:27] I just, my point was that you want to make, [00:53:30] you know, you want to sell your product, [00:53:31] so if you go out and do it, three or four of them, [00:53:34] what's your minimum amount of cost [00:53:35] versus one that takes, you know, a big number. [00:53:39] What else we got, Roman? [00:53:41] That's it, I think we skipped and jumped [00:53:44] right straight into questions, [00:53:47] because we talked about, we've got a lot of directions. [00:53:53] John King's still out of town, [00:53:54] if you want to make any proposals. [00:53:55] We did talk about pavement versus inferiors. [00:54:01] Another outstanding issue we still have [00:54:03] is Mr. Vela's request to pave a portion [00:54:08] of the alley behind his property at his expense. [00:54:13] We haven't really made a decision [00:54:15] as to whether or not we want him to pave the alley. [00:54:18] I just, the question he keeps throwing in my face [00:54:21] is that what we're asking him to do [00:54:24] as far as sub-base and whatever the terms are in pavement [00:54:28] are a lot thicker and a lot more [00:54:30] than we actually ask of our own streets. [00:54:34] It's the same, he was given the same detail [00:54:36] that our contractors do and that we have in our standards. [00:54:42] We didn't change anything. [00:54:43] He just, well, he just keeps saying [00:54:45] that it's more than what we ask for our own streets. [00:54:48] That's inaccurate information. [00:54:50] It's inaccurate? [00:54:51] Oh, okay, then that's all I need to know. [00:54:52] That's your issue, what do you do with the alleys? [00:54:55] I mean, whoever told him that [00:54:57] in response to looking at our specs [00:54:59] doesn't know what our specs are. [00:55:01] Well, it's the paving guy that he's [00:55:04] supposedly gonna deal with. [00:55:06] I'm just saying this is, you know, [00:55:08] I'm in the middle of this, so I'm just saying. [00:55:09] Get out of the middle. [00:55:11] Tell him to talk to us, we'll give him. [00:55:13] Okay. [00:55:14] Or show him copies. [00:55:15] Well, I'm just saying his paver [00:55:18] who pays for us, supposedly, says that it's more. [00:55:22] He's not a name that's familiar to me. [00:55:26] He's a limerock or crushed concrete. [00:55:29] We try to stay away from limerock anymore. [00:55:31] Well, no, I'm just saying, no, I'm not saying the product. [00:55:33] I'm just saying the depth of all this. [00:55:35] He's saying it's deeper than what we ask our own. [00:55:38] For him, when he does stuff in the city, [00:55:41] that's what, you know, I'm in the middle [00:55:44] of a conversation with a beer, you know. [00:55:47] Well, I can tell you the way his, [00:55:49] the way what I've seen from the people [00:55:52] that were going to do the work for him [00:55:56] and what they say they're gonna do, [00:56:00] I think it'd be an inferior product. [00:56:03] He's not even going so far as to get any boring samples [00:56:06] to find out how, you know, it's sugar sand. [00:56:09] What material does he have? [00:56:10] Then I'll make, you know, if you want input from me [00:56:13] is that, you know, we have set standards. [00:56:15] We're gonna inspect it. [00:56:17] You've got to provide the same standards [00:56:18] that we would expect anybody that we hire. [00:56:21] But he's willing, I mean, if he's willing to do it, [00:56:23] but it's gonna go by our rules. [00:56:25] That's what I look at. [00:56:26] But then we talk about, we talk about [00:56:27] whether we, they're gonna pay for paving, [00:56:29] we're gonna pay for engineering. [00:56:31] So what if the case, but you might, [00:56:32] we might do the engineering and say, [00:56:34] this is what it calls for. [00:56:35] If you want to, you know, we've done the study. [00:56:38] So what's the timeframe that he's talking about? [00:56:41] It's both, I mean, all the neighbors, [00:56:42] both sides of the neighbors are all for it, [00:56:44] you know, what he wants to pay. [00:56:46] So if he wants to do it, [00:56:47] but he's got to do it by our standards. [00:56:49] He probably also needs to know [00:56:51] that we're actively talking about doing these. [00:56:53] Well, he knows that, but it's not going fast enough for him. [00:56:56] We'll do, you know, would we have, [00:56:58] we've told him that, you know, [00:57:00] if that's what you want to do, [00:57:01] you need to build it according to our standards. [00:57:03] Right, and we have to verify property boundary information [00:57:09] and do some boring so that we know [00:57:11] what the subsurface materials are. [00:57:14] Well, I mean, you know, I mean, I don't know. [00:57:16] Robert, if boundary information. [00:57:19] Yeah, so that we're actually paid on our property. [00:57:22] Because we've gone through it. [00:57:23] Would we, what would be the expense [00:57:27] if we did the engineering form? [00:57:28] I mean, what somebody just mentioned. [00:57:30] Would we do it? [00:57:31] I mean, why should you tell me to? [00:57:34] Yeah, I don't know. [00:57:35] I don't know why, what, [00:57:38] I wouldn't want to give you an estimate [00:57:40] because I'm not really sure. [00:57:41] Right, but I'm just saying. [00:57:42] I mean, it would start off with a survey. [00:57:45] We've taken and actually had people call us up [00:57:49] and say, hey, people are driving 30 feet up on my property. [00:57:55] I'm getting ready to build a house. [00:57:57] And when you go out there, [00:57:59] it looks like it lines up with where the alley would be. [00:58:02] But over a certain amount of time, [00:58:05] you know, a tree grew or something, [00:58:07] everybody's moved over, it shifted over more and more. [00:58:11] And so you would, without a doubt, [00:58:14] have to start off with survey work. [00:58:16] And then after you did survey work, [00:58:17] then you'd have to start doing boring samples [00:58:19] to find out what your conditions are out there [00:58:22] before you could even start your design on that section. [00:58:25] And so my thoughts are, you know, [00:58:28] if you let somebody do that [00:58:29] and they build it the way they want to, [00:58:32] then it's still your property. [00:58:35] So you're still responsible for what happens [00:58:37] on that property and the condition of it. [00:58:40] So now, are we out there every week [00:58:43] having to cut out the asphalt because there's failures? [00:58:47] But those types of things. [00:58:48] Okay, but I understand, I got the building part, [00:58:51] but the surveying part, would we do the surveying part [00:58:54] and say, hey, this is our property where you can build it, [00:58:56] and then you have to go by our rules? [00:58:57] Is that a fair offer? [00:59:02] It depends on how you look at it. [00:59:06] From my perspective, [00:59:08] the dancers always pay the price of the band. [00:59:10] He's the exclusive beneficiary of this portion of pavement [00:59:15] because he wants it to service his garage, [00:59:19] so he should pay the costs. [00:59:22] Unless you tell me something differently. [00:59:24] Well, I'm just saying, it's our property. [00:59:26] I want to make sure he's on our property with the survey too. [00:59:29] Right, so do we. [00:59:30] The mistake in my mind is even entertaining [00:59:33] letting someone do something. [00:59:35] The county had sidewalk proposals [00:59:39] where if a sidewalk went bad, [00:59:40] they would let the resident or the owner of the property [00:59:44] redo the sidewalk. [00:59:46] And so there's precedent for what you're saying, [00:59:49] but I didn't think that was a great idea. [00:59:52] And so he's saying he hates the alley. [00:59:58] We don't have to give him a paved alley. [01:00:00] But if we decide that that's an alley we want to start scraping and preparing, my [01:00:06] question is, can you do a phase one? I mean, we really need like a master plan [01:00:10] of saying, we got a survey, we got to put markers, we got to decide where it is, [01:00:15] what are we going to use them for. We don't have any master plan for this. [01:00:19] We're sitting here... Or an alley management plan. We do not. We need to know what the uses are [01:00:25] going to be, Mike, I think, and I think we're all in agreement. We want to see [01:00:30] that asset be built up so the property values go up. If we let him pave it, [01:00:39] let's just go the other way. Okay, go ahead and do what you want to do. [01:00:43] What is the downside to us as a city for that? If we held him liable, if it [01:00:48] creates a drainage problem to the neighbor, then that's going to be his [01:00:51] issue. If it has to be repaired, it's his issue. It's our issue. It's our property. We have to maintain it. [01:00:59] It becomes our problem because it's our property. So it's going to reflect on the rest of the... [01:01:04] So if we have to go in and fix it, he has to pay for it. Or if it goes un-fixed and someone's cargaged... [01:01:13] But if you do it right the first time, then if you do it according to our rules, then we don't want it. [01:01:16] Just throw that out, okay? When I see your guys in public works with their [01:01:21] tractors, like when they were out on the Pritchett's property clearing up to make [01:01:25] the parking lot you all made in, what, three days or a week or whatever, that [01:01:29] worked very nicely, right? It's been working. You guys have the skill sets. That's why I [01:01:34] keep going back to the $200,000 or whatever we're paying for the yard [01:01:39] debris pickup. It's like you've got the equipment. You could go in and say, [01:01:44] no, but guess what? We're scraping the damn alley out. We'll drop some, make it [01:01:50] functional, if that's what it is. Can you do that in a way in which it benefits [01:01:56] the ultimate solution at the end? I mean, can there be a phase one? Let's get the [01:02:01] alleys smooth, figure out our drainage, and lay something down like a crushed [01:02:06] rock or anything that's not going to be pavement that you guys could do [01:02:10] in a fashion that it would be at least functional or better than it is? [01:02:15] We're capable of doing minor areas, like the one picture that you saw. If there [01:02:22] were, if like, I'll give you an example. When we have residents call us up and [01:02:26] they say, hey, there's an area where your bucket is digging a [01:02:32] hole, and now it's gotten wider. Well, we'll go out there and if most of the [01:02:39] time it's dirt, we fill it with dirt. If someone says, hey, that, you know, it [01:02:44] rained real hard and the last of that dilapidated asphalt has opened up, then [01:02:50] we would go get some asphalt and fill in that area and do a very minimal repair. [01:02:57] But to be able to use our forces to go out, we still would have to get survey [01:03:04] work. Anytime you're starting to, you're going to start putting base down and [01:03:08] those types of things, it just wouldn't, you need to do that all in one motion. [01:03:14] You need to get the engineering done, survey work done, and then go with it. So [01:03:19] you would be better off to do the whole thing regardless of what you were doing. [01:03:24] You just would, you would, you would go, you wouldn't go in and pave half an [01:03:29] alley or a quarter of an alley. You would go block to block where it intersects [01:03:34] the streets, where that drainage is going to go. It just wouldn't make any [01:03:40] sense to do that. I would, I mean, maybe I don't know, but I would think that if [01:03:44] you're going to, you know, put down a base or something just temporarily for now, [01:03:48] your drain is going to be different than you go back and you're going to go back [01:03:52] with pavement or asphalt. It would. So you need to know your drainage ahead of time [01:03:57] to make those corrections. You don't want to crack them twice. That's what I would think. [01:04:01] If you're putting asphalt down, too, you might be putting, you know, some kind of [01:04:04] drain, drainage all the way down the middle of that street. It may, it may like [01:04:08] like this. Yeah, all that stuff, you know, to draw the water so it doesn't go up. [01:04:13] So you kind of got to plan for what you're going to put there. Yeah. [01:04:17] We need to plan. And so if this, you know, if this gentleman was to go ahead and put his stuff down, he's at a wrong grade, and then we go to paint the rest of the alley. [01:04:27] Now we've got to rip his stuff back out because he installed it at the wrong grade. [01:04:32] Let's go, let's go back to, you know, what he wants. It's, you know, Bala, Dave Bala. [01:04:38] You know, he look, he's looking at a, you know, 200 feet or whatever the number is [01:04:42] down the street, and that's not the project. The project is one end to the [01:04:46] other end of his street, you know, and it's going to be all done at once, and [01:04:51] it's going to be done with drainage, and it's going to be done with surveying and [01:04:53] engineering. Okay. Done right. Just quick question, where are we on getting North [01:05:00] River surveyed for the sidewalks? We're waiting on the consultant to give us the task order so that we can, we can bring it to you and get that moving. [01:05:11] But we are sending a letter out to all the River Road residents. It'll go out probably tomorrow, and we're going to conduct a neighborhood meeting and bring [01:05:21] everybody up to speed on where we are and gather some input from the neighbors. [01:05:26] Great. Anything else before we break for supper? Where are we with the paving, the next paving? I mean, you've run, you've got ahead, you're moving. [01:05:37] So we got ahead, we're on schedule. The contractor that is in town now, Ajax, we, a couple weeks ago, we gave them the new set of plans for the next [01:05:51] construction phase. They're reviewing it right now to see if they can, if they can match the dollar amounts that's in their existing contract. If they can, we'll do a change order and keep moving. [01:06:06] If they can't and they say, you know, we've got, we've got to increase it a certain percentage or whatever, then I'd have to get with Debbie to find out if she'd want to bring it to you, if it was worth that, or we would go out to bid. [01:06:20] Well, I would think that Fleeman, was his name, wasn't it? Fleeman David. That did the original paving assessment. He did, with us. [01:06:30] And set up the original plan. It wouldn't hurt to get, like, some kind of a short-term where do we stand at some point, you know, with the condition. [01:06:42] Are we not running out of bad roads now, pretty much, the real terrible ones? [01:06:47] We're getting to the point now where I think we're going to be able to start, after this, after this construction phase project is done, we should be in a position now where we can start taking neighborhoods and do them. [01:07:01] Instead of, so yes, we are, we are caught up. [01:07:07] Well, maybe that's the time to dovetail the alley plans in, since they are, like, in the neighborhood. [01:07:13] I don't think we need to go back to that guy to get scheduled down the road, though. I think we've got the schedule. We don't need to go. [01:07:23] Right. Okay. [01:07:24] Just the condition, though, when they did the original thing, they did a drive-by and gave us the condition. So I'm just curious, and maybe you guys can do it. [01:07:32] Did you know what was Category 1, 2, 3, and 4? You did the same with the alleys? [01:07:38] My last pitch on the alleys is, the really crappy ones, it would be nice to get them to where you could drive across them without flattening your tire. [01:07:47] And, you know, and I'm with Mike, as long as we leave them the way they are, we're going to have the problems with the occupants that we have. [01:07:58] Well, yeah. So, can we recap what you guys understand of what we've talked about? Can we do a summary real quick? [01:08:10] So there is no vacation. You're not interested? [01:08:13] We're not interested. [01:08:14] You, absolutely not. [01:08:18] You want to, go ahead. I thought you were struggling. I was going to jump in. [01:08:24] Sure. [01:08:25] Go ahead. [01:08:27] You're wanting us to go ahead and do an assessment of those alleys. [01:08:31] We want to get an estimate on what we think it would cost for those five miles. [01:08:39] Come back to you all with some type of game plan that calls that out so that you all can make your decisions as far as budgetary items and how much you want to spend. [01:08:51] What kind of methodology, whether it's 100% city or however. [01:08:57] We want to reclaim. [01:08:59] We got it. [01:09:00] We want to reclaim. [01:09:01] We're not done. [01:09:02] Oh, okay. [01:09:03] Give us a chance. We got it. [01:09:05] Vacation and reclamation, right? [01:09:08] Yeah, that's it. [01:09:09] Reclamation, okay. [01:09:10] Well, that wasn't the same. [01:09:13] Start the reclaiming of the alleys. [01:09:16] We take in, start getting in there and let the contractor finish up with the maintenance that he's doing. [01:09:24] Then we follow up and take a look at the condition of the alley surfaces itself to see if there's any way that we can clean up some of those and then go from there. [01:09:37] I think that's it. [01:09:38] Investigate some alternate funding sources. [01:09:40] Excellent. [01:09:41] One comment, Robert, that I got from a homeowner about the contractor cutting back. [01:09:46] He indicated that he expressed to me it looked like they'd cleared out and then they'd dumped at the end of a dead end alley, but maybe they didn't haul it off. [01:09:57] Okay. [01:09:58] Do you have the location? [01:10:00] Got to go five miles on his bike. [01:10:02] No, no, no. [01:10:03] It was one of the ones that we were looking at vacating up there, alley one over there by Polk Street, I believe. [01:10:13] I think that's where there's a church on one side, and I think it's down that church side going west. [01:10:29] On your summarizing, I would love to get an understanding of the summary of where we stand with the yard debris thing. [01:10:36] I mean, I know there was a talk about us potentially having a site where people could deliver it and not have to put it in their yards or any options, but we didn't seem to come to a real consensus. [01:10:49] No, we were going to have a work session, and I'm due to schedule that shortly. [01:10:56] I want to get your budget. [01:10:58] My wife was thrilled to death to see that you're actually doing the pipe work on Palmetto before you pave it, as opposed to the other way around. [01:11:09] And we've tried to look at that with those items. [01:11:12] One more communication item. [01:11:15] It looks like they started working again on the Jasmine Park seawall. [01:11:21] The cut? [01:11:22] They had stopped for two or three weeks? [01:11:25] Because I was going to ask about that, but then I saw they came through and broke the sidewalk. [01:11:29] The whole company just about had an outbreak of COVID, and they shut all of their jobs down. [01:11:40] I'll share that also with my wife, since they were doing some work. [01:11:44] And this contractor has worked with the city, and we've never had any problems with it. [01:11:51] I haven't talked to Robert about it yet. [01:11:54] Okay. [01:11:55] Great.

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3. 3Adjournment▶ 1:11:56