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   Discussion Regarding the Alley Management Plan (AMP)

   discussed

   Council discussed the Alley Management Plan (AMP) presented by Robert Rivera, including inventory of the city's 5.2 miles of alleys, vacation procedures, and recommendations. Council reached consensus not to vacate alleys (with rare exceptions like a lift station blockage) and directed staff to begin reclaiming alleys that have been encroached upon by adjacent property owners (fences, etc.). Staff was directed to revise the plan to reflect a policy against vacating alleys and to pursue reclamation.

   • consensus:Council consensus not to vacate alleys as a general policy, with rare exceptions such as where a lift station blocks the alley. (none)
   • direction:Council directed staff to begin reclaiming alleys that have been encroached upon by adjacent property owners (e.g., fences in the right-of-way). (none)
   • direction:Council directed staff to revise the Alley Management Plan to include language stating the policy against vacating alleys. (none)

   📍Delaware Avenue📍Lafayette Street📍Oleander📍Tug and Grunt right-of-way🏢Genesis👤Barrett👤David Fleeman👤Debbie👤Frank Starkey👤Pete Altman👤Robert Rivera#Accessory Dwelling Units (ADUs)#Alley Management Plan (AMP)#Environmental Committee recommendations#Longleaf (Starkey development)

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   [00:00:14] The first and only thing on the agenda is discussing discussion regarding the alley management plan, or AMP, which is a lot easier to say. [00:00:23] It's much easier to say. And we started talking about the alleys back in March of 2020 when Mr. Rivera originally presented to us the AMP program, which he had worked with David Fleeman of Genesis in Half on. [00:00:49] And at that time they had conducted an inventory of all of our alleys. We have 5.2 miles of alleys in the city. [00:01:01] And they inventoried the condition of all of the alleys that we have. And they made some recommendations on some alleys that should be vacated and some improvements that need to be made on alleys that they weren't recommending be vacated. [00:01:25] And methods of how the financing could occur if neighbors were interested in vacating alleys. At the conclusion of the discussion, we didn't take any specific action on either adopting the plan or not. [00:01:45] And so we're going to talk about that in more specific detail tonight. I think some things have occurred, though, since we originally discussed the matter, which really brings some additional value to how we consider alleys. [00:02:05] And one of those is the discussion about accessory dwelling units. I think that that brings great value to alleys and improves people's value of having an alley. I think that they're a great secondary use to streets. [00:02:30] I think that they can be used not only for roadway purposes, but also for bicycling or for walking purposes. And so there are other dimensions to it. And we have had a good amount of interest expressed by people that abut alleys in either making some improvements individually or making them collectively as a group. [00:03:00] Or asking the city to make improvements on their behalf. So those are all things that I think we need to discuss as a group tonight at the conclusion of Robert's presentation. [00:03:12] Thank you. And just to add to what the city manager was talking about, the last time we met, you had given us direction to get with the environmental committee and get some input from them. [00:03:26] The plan that we presented was basically an effort to try to have some type of uniform standard operating procedure or guidelines to where if different residents came up and wanted to propose vacating, wanted to propose paving, not paving, that type of request to city council. [00:03:52] That council had given staff a policy direction and we would have some type of guidelines that would stay consistent for future council members as well as new residents and new staff and that type of thing. [00:04:08] The plan that we presented, while I'm presenting it to you again in its same format, the plan itself is just a base. It's not a recommendation that staff is saying, well we think you need to do this with alleys or not do this with alleys. [00:04:27] We still feel like alleys should be dealt with on an individual basis and should eventually come to city council as far as what type of decision that they would want to make on individual requests. Again, all this is is just a guideline so that we could follow a process. [00:04:50] I do want to just follow up on the point that Robert's making. When we did ask the environmental committee for input, they had two specific recommendations and the first one was don't vacate any alleys, which wouldn't be consistent with our recommendations. We feel there's a number of alleys that need to be vacated in large part because there are structures constructed in the alleys. [00:05:18] Which would cause them to be impassable. In one instance, I think there's a house, am I right? A garage? Carport? And another, a lift station if I'm remembering correctly. [00:05:38] Just while we're on that one, is that carport, did it have a permit when it was built? Do we know that? [00:05:46] I'm not remembering specifically, but I believe it was and I can verify that. [00:05:52] In introduction to tonight, basically how we look at alleys is they function in a block to block basis is how we look at them. In other words, they don't extend from multiple streets. We divide them up from street to street. [00:06:18] They're used for secondary parcel access, which is a direct benefit to the property owners. From this slide, you can see our inventory that we have. I know that it's hard to see and I think you've got it in your packet. [00:06:36] They've got them listed by what type of material or base material is in the alley itself. This study was done by the engineer as well as staff multiple times driving through the alleys to take a visual look. [00:06:56] Now, some things have changed since then. When the engineer and staff went through in the beginning when we started this process, the alleys hadn't been cut back. Since then, we've had a contractor go through, trim them back and then we're actually, he's on his second round now and we're actually in the process of doing some trimming. [00:07:20] I had Barrett go out there the last week and take a look at these alleys and he has noticed a vast improvement as far as their accessibility and what we possibly could do with them. What you'll see at the end of the slides is that the list of vacations that we thought were not accessible has been reduced. [00:07:46] We categorize the- [00:07:48] Right on that. Is it all right if we just add a little bit? [00:07:52] Okay. [00:07:53] Just a question there. From the first trimming to the second trimming or cut back to the trimming, are people picking up the care of them a little bit? Did you notice? [00:08:04] From what I saw, yeah. I drove through- [00:08:07] You gave it to them and then they would take care of it. [00:08:10] Yeah, it seemed to be that after we made the clear path that they did take a little bit more ownership. I mean, there's some stuff that needs to be trimmed now, but that's beyond their control. It's the bigger palm trees and stuff like that, but the majority- [00:08:22] It's fine, but not in the air maybe? [00:08:24] I mean, not too bad though on the sides. Some of them do need to be cleared, but you could, I got my work truck in between all the alleys, save for a few that we'll talk about that we're recommending. [00:08:34] I was curious if you did that, whether they- [00:08:36] 20-foot wide swat and 14-foot vertical. [00:08:41] Yeah, they seemed like they were in decent shape in whatever condition the base was. You could get through there, yeah. [00:08:49] We categorized them into four groups. Most of the alleys, we found out, had some type of stabilization base to them. The four types were the unimproved, and from this photo here, you can see it's basically overgrown. [00:09:04] Grass is taken back, vegetation is taken back over the alley portion. We had an intermixed base and vegetation, depending on where you were at driving down the alley. [00:09:18] Conglomerated asphalt, meaning you could see at one point in time where the alley was probably paved at some extent, and then over the years, city crews coming in and just making patches of pieces of defective work and stuff. [00:09:37] No standardization. You can see over here towards that garage door, you can see where the sugar sand's at, where asphalt would just continue to fail as it goes down. [00:09:48] Excuse me, and then we had the type that we called improved asphalt. These were mainly around the center of town, around the downtown area, those types of things, or some of the areas that some of the businesses have taken over, so there's a little more traffic there. [00:10:09] We thought, okay, if you did want a vacation, what would the process be? This chart calls out the process that would be, and the city would receive the petition. We would verify those names. [00:10:25] If it was less than 50% of the people that lived on that section, then there's no further action required. If it's more than 50, then the city sends out an official questionnaire to the owners. We tabulate those results that we get back, and again, if it's less than 50%, no further action letter, and it stops there. [00:10:51] You say no further action, so you have an alley that's been privatized by one side of the street, and the city has taken no action to maintain its alley in any functional way. You've made a couple of recommendations. The one in particular is the Delaware Avenue one that I had talked to you all about. [00:11:18] We've got pictures and we've got some recommendations on that as well. [00:11:27] So you're going through a petition process, which would be different from you coming up to us and saying, we need to do something here. Let's just assume that the property in question, which has three lots across from it, that all the other ones love it the way it is, and say, no, we don't want to vacate it. [00:11:46] We've got that land, we're using it for ourselves, and we've privatized it. They've run fences all the way up. So maybe you're coming to a point, and so maybe that's why we shouldn't jump the gun, but just make a mental note that no further action would work in that situation. [00:12:05] And that's what we're talking about when I say that we're presenting this plan and guideline to you. [00:12:13] It's in hopes that I think we have a good base, but if in our discussions there's things like that percentage, not to jump the gun, but some of the comments that Frank Starkey had, that he had sent back to you, his reply was he thought that the alleys were an asset of the city and that that percentage should be 70%. [00:12:27] I don't want it to be any percent. I don't want to vacate alleys. I'm just saying either if you find one that's not useful and you come to us, that's different from you telling us how you're going to vacate an alley. [00:12:36] Because I had an email from the guy after he bought the house, what's going to happen. So I'm speaking on his behalf or on another. You all had two or three where you said from the staff that you were going to vacate an alley. [00:13:07] We recommend that you just, it's a dead end. There's a big tree in it. We don't want the maintenance of it. It's got no use. [00:13:16] So it has nothing to do with the process you're talking about, but just to say it, I'm with Frank. I'm not for vacating alleys by petition, but I appreciate that you've laid out a process, but I don't see why we would want to. [00:13:32] And I agree and I understand that and we're not proposing that. This is purely just a guideline that if you decided that for whatever case it was, it's already laid out for you instead of trying to make one up. [00:13:48] I tend to agree with Mr. Altman. The only exception I can give to that is one that came in front of us 12 years ago. [00:14:03] Two of the property owners right on the river approached the city about vacating the Tug and Grunt right away from whatever street that was to the river. [00:14:18] And it made not a whole lot of sense to have the right in it. I think it was at the end of Lafayette down to the river. [00:14:30] And we did vacate that and gave each one of them a piece of it. [00:14:34] Although the flip side of that is we've got some other examples of street right-of-ways that run all the way to the river. [00:14:46] And we might not want to vacate those because at some point we may have public docks or other features. [00:14:55] But it works on the same sort of basis as the alleys. [00:15:00] want to give away this stuff, unless it's just completely non-functional. [00:15:05] If somebody built a lift station in the middle of it, we might want to talk, but. [00:15:11] And I think, too, to add to that, and I remember when we presented the plan in [00:15:15] the beginning, you all came back with, which we didn't know, but we needed to [00:15:19] talk to figure this out, was, okay, how did you feel about trees? [00:15:24] Was that a reason whether or not to vacate an alley if there was a grand [00:15:29] eddy oak, and the impression that we got back that we felt where you all were [00:15:34] like, no, we can grow another tree, the alley is more valuable. [00:15:40] So, again, those recommendations that, like, at the end of this PowerPoint, [00:15:45] you'll see, our recommendations when we first came to you were, I think, [00:15:50] about five or six, something like that. [00:15:52] Those have gone down to one now, based on the input that we [00:15:57] had received from city council on that go around before we went back. [00:16:02] Yeah, I'm sorry for me to jump the gun, but I think there are just one or two little [00:16:06] off-ball situations that. [00:16:08] This is good, because this is giving us feedback to where we can put something. [00:16:11] So the question, I guess, I would have for you all, if we're going to do it this way, [00:16:16] then, are you fine with having a process in the plan to where, [00:16:24] if something came up down the road, then you would know what the process was. [00:16:29] And by the time you ended up having your discussion on whether or [00:16:32] not to vacate an alley, you would know how we got there. [00:16:37] In other words, you would know who. [00:16:39] The problem is that you're offering the citizens a chance to take their alleyway. [00:16:45] And I'm on their side. [00:16:46] I don't want them to have that offer, unless there's some circumstances, [00:16:50] like your two examples where there's a garage already built halfway through it, [00:16:55] or the other one was a lift station. [00:16:58] That's the only exception, in my mind, that I want. [00:17:01] And that's actually why, I mean, if you take a look at it, [00:17:04] that's why the Starkey's built longleaf was patterned after the city, [00:17:08] so that people had access to their property from the alleyways. [00:17:11] And I would take it a step further. [00:17:12] I'm not sure that I would even vacate the one that's got the carport. [00:17:17] Because at some point, if that carport comes down, we want to reclaim on that. [00:17:25] So. [00:17:26] Especially because it's right off the top of the next slide, is the guess I'm thinking. [00:17:31] I don't know. [00:17:31] Well, you want to, you put out. [00:17:33] I'm just thinking, like, is it a consensus that you want to take the flow chart out, [00:17:37] and that guideline of a way to do it, if you're not interested in it? [00:17:41] It's basically, how do I get rid of this? [00:17:45] There's really not a way. [00:17:48] Anyone figure it out from there? [00:17:50] And then if the city comes to us and say, we need to get rid of this alley, [00:17:53] or we think there's no reason for it, that would be your own recommendation to us. [00:18:03] We have these, we have those, I don't know, there's streets over on Oleander. [00:18:08] We've got a couple people fighting over them, or have been over. [00:18:12] And we've decided not to give it to them. [00:18:13] So that's going to set the precedent right on down that street, too. [00:18:17] Because they're every other house. [00:18:19] So we'll have language in here that states that the policy of city council is not to. [00:18:28] And I think, you know, police chief over there would love to have that access in certain situations. [00:18:36] You know, same with the fire chief, if he was sitting here. [00:18:39] You know, I would suppose that there are some unforeseen, because we don't know what the future holds, [00:18:45] comes in and makes sense. [00:18:47] Someone writes a letter, starts talking to members of council, [00:18:50] someone can bring it up, and he can still be kicked around and talk to that time. [00:18:54] But to set, I agree with Pete, set a, here's how you do it, [00:19:01] and then we're never going to do it anyway, so why publish it? [00:19:10] So this is the city initiated right of way vacation, and there's actually one. [00:19:15] This is the alley that we were talking about. [00:19:18] It has a lift station right in the center, and then it has the parking lot. [00:19:23] This is right behind the hospital. [00:19:26] I think it's just north of Pennsylvania. [00:19:29] That's the only one that's when staff looks at it, you know. [00:19:33] But then again, if you guys feel like you don't want to vacate anything, that's fine. [00:19:41] We just need direction. [00:19:43] If at some point that lift station gets replaced with something else, [00:19:49] that alley may become available. [00:19:51] It could, yeah. [00:19:52] So we're not vacating it to ourselves. [00:19:56] You know, I mean, really, we're not going to use it anymore as an alley, [00:19:59] but because of us, not because of the neighborhood or whatever. [00:20:02] But that's only one part of the alley. [00:20:04] See, it will stand out to the other. [00:20:06] The next side. [00:20:07] To the next street. [00:20:07] So now the question is, it could be accessed from the other street, [00:20:13] and the station would be a dead end, per se. [00:20:15] So some property owners could have access to rear their properties, [00:20:19] coming from the other street, right? [00:20:20] Right, backwards. [00:20:22] Coming from the east to the west. [00:20:24] Right, it could be. [00:20:24] We do have a couple alleys that are like that. [00:20:27] At ends. [00:20:28] That they dead end. [00:20:29] There's a parking lot there on the other end? [00:20:31] Mm-hm. [00:20:33] It's the same alley, looking a different direction. [00:20:36] So does the parking lot engage the alley as well? [00:20:39] Or is there a- [00:20:40] No, right now, there's a curb, but if- [00:20:43] We could put a thruway. [00:20:45] If, yeah, that's always a discussion you could have with the hospital. [00:20:48] They work well with us. [00:20:50] Go back to Debbie's point, that it's providing access. [00:20:55] If that's the area that- [00:20:59] Yeah, if ultimately the lift station were relocated, [00:21:06] then at that time, you could approach the hospital about, [00:21:10] hey, this would give another option for your people to get out without- [00:21:15] Sure. [00:21:15] Taking their lives into their own hands on Indiana. [00:21:21] So that- [00:21:22] So really not, so our idea here is to not vacate that religious- [00:21:28] Correct. [00:21:28] Just leave it vacant. [00:21:31] Just make sure we're all on the same page. [00:21:32] Well, I guess it leads to the other question, because we have, [00:21:36] you guys answered this question here. [00:21:38] This one is just a short little one that goes parallel behind the police station. [00:21:45] But, so I got my answer on this. [00:21:47] We're not asking to vacate it. [00:21:50] We'll hold on to that. [00:21:51] But that alley is still opened up. [00:21:55] So the next question, the next question that we would have, and [00:21:59] I think we might have taken, and this is a two-part alley, [00:22:05] and this is one where Council Alton used to reside at. [00:22:10] And so you've answered the question as far as if there's a tree, [00:22:16] how important is that tree? [00:22:19] Obviously, they can grow back, so I would assume that you're saying, no, [00:22:23] let's maintain it, let's open it up to where it is. [00:22:27] But it would lead us to the next question, and Pete, [00:22:31] we did find out that that alley doesn't go all the way through to the end. [00:22:35] It stops. [00:22:37] So it would be similar. [00:22:39] Right, so it would be similar to the other one that we just talked about. [00:22:42] It would be one way, but you still would be able to access it and utilize it. [00:22:47] But you can't access it if the city owns it and other people are using it. [00:22:53] Well, that's our last question. [00:22:56] Back up one, back up one. [00:22:57] Okay. [00:22:58] Isn't that fence on the alleyway? [00:23:02] Is that the one where the fence is in the alley? [00:23:06] On the line there. [00:23:07] Yeah, it could. [00:23:07] Yeah, that's on the border. [00:23:08] To the west, it is wooded with bamboo and [00:23:14] trees and nobody can get through there beyond that level. [00:23:18] But an example would be, is a portion of, when you get past your former property, [00:23:25] they've claimed the alley. [00:23:28] The fence that you're talking about. [00:23:28] And so that's the next question that we would have for you as far as policy goes. [00:23:34] You don't want to vacate any alleys. [00:23:37] Now do you want us to go in and start reclaiming alleys? [00:23:41] Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, yeah. [00:23:45] I mean, we, the guy on grant put a fence up. [00:23:48] We finally, after how many months, got him to take a portion of it down. [00:23:52] You get a permit for that fence? [00:23:54] Well, so that's my question, is if some chance someone actually has a permit, [00:23:58] then there's going to be an issue. [00:24:00] You know, we'd have to probably pay for it to do it. [00:24:04] I don't think so. [00:24:05] If we get, if you got a permit, you got a permit just to put a fence up over, [00:24:09] on our, on our right away or anything, but it's still ours. [00:24:13] Now you mentioned that alley doesn't go through. [00:24:15] Why? [00:24:16] Why does it? [00:24:17] Huh? [00:24:18] I know why. [00:24:18] Why? [00:24:19] Thank you. [00:24:20] In 1955, when my father built his house on three lots, and [00:24:25] he wanted to put a tennis, I'm guessing, because I was only like, not born yet. [00:24:34] But, you know. [00:24:35] I'm young and I don't remember either. [00:24:41] But I know the answer, because there was a connection, and [00:24:45] it went between the lot that my family had, and the lot and house to the west. [00:24:51] So, the out, because of the way Lafayette turns around as it gets closer, [00:24:58] following the river, it didn't go through because there was a house on Lafayette. [00:25:03] Because our house was facing Lafayette, so there was no through way, so [00:25:07] they designed it to turn back to Delaware and come out. [00:25:11] And so there is a vacated alley from the 50s that had a left turn to it, [00:25:18] which is why that house is three lots plus a half an alley wide. [00:25:23] And so the, you know, I don't know how you reclaim that exit point. [00:25:28] I don't think you can at this point after 80 years or 70 years. [00:25:33] But that's what happened, and I had the benefit of playing tennis in the backyard, [00:25:38] and I hesitate to say that it had to do with the length of a tennis court, but, [00:25:43] you know, or the length of anyone using. [00:25:45] But the bottom line is, there are a three lot property and [00:25:49] then three lots next to it. [00:25:52] The one at the end doesn't want the alley. [00:25:55] The next one doesn't want the alley. [00:25:58] And so there was a point where they never wanted it. [00:26:04] And I'm okay, Chopper, with saying, no, it's our alley. [00:26:07] Use it, if you want a boat to come in, or you want to build a pool in the future, [00:26:11] or whatever, you know? [00:26:13] But the problem lies with the fact that it's just been abandoned by the city for [00:26:18] what, 50 years or whatever it's been. [00:26:25] That's a difficult question. [00:26:27] But the new property owner, which, Property behind me, [00:26:34] so, had a golf cart or he had a second home or something? [00:26:40] He could pop out the back or whatever. [00:26:43] That would raise us an interesting question if you've got half of an alley [00:26:49] still that's there, it's not wide enough for a garbage truck, [00:26:53] but it would be wide enough for a golf cart. [00:26:59] Or even a garage where you park your car in the back. [00:27:04] But for that encroaching use of them. [00:27:05] We're bringing up individual examples, but [00:27:07] we're still going with the basis that, no, you can't have our property. [00:27:11] Correct. [00:27:12] Correct. [00:27:13] Then the point is, yeah, we gotta go back and [00:27:15] claim, tell these people to move their fences back. [00:27:19] So the question is, how far back do you go? [00:27:21] Well, the question is, how much money does it cost the city? [00:27:24] Cuz that was the issue when the tree fell, which is the city really didn't have [00:27:27] a policy to put a lot of effort into clearing alleys. [00:27:30] It was kind of like sidewalks in the old days. [00:27:32] You'd take care of your own alley. [00:27:34] And so then you got a $2,000 removal of a tree, or [00:27:40] trees that are in the way you have to take down and pay for. [00:27:43] So I think we would have to admit that we would be supporting [00:27:47] a capital improvement effort to get these alleys back. [00:27:51] And we have budgeted some funds for the clearing of the alleys. [00:27:55] Right, I think it's $25,000 annually. [00:27:58] Let's sort of roll forward, see what else we've got to deal with here. [00:28:07] And so this is another picture of how people have taken over an alley, [00:28:14] and those two homes there have made it part of their yard. [00:28:17] And it really doesn't look like it's an alley if you drive right by it. [00:28:22] Well, as long as we inform them, to the point when we actually pave it at some point. [00:28:30] Right. [00:28:30] Then I don't mind them leaving it, but just as long as they're aware. [00:28:35] Now, we've got this picture here because the other thing that we wanted to talk [00:28:39] about too, and didn't know how you felt, but when we went back to [00:28:45] the environmental committee, they actually said that they didn't want [00:28:51] any asphalt paving of any of the alleys. [00:28:55] And if city council was to disagree with their opinion or recommendation, [00:29:01] they suggested that if you improve an alley, that you should only use impervious material. [00:29:09] Or pervious material. [00:29:13] When we, when we looked at Frank Starkey's letter to city council, [00:29:19] his, his recommendation or his thought process was he wasn't against paving it. [00:29:27] He even came out with a couple of recommendations on, you know, how you could, [00:29:33] how you could have guidelines almost like what we presented earlier on vacation. [00:29:38] But you would have guidelines on if somebody came in and [00:29:42] had a petition with the people that wanted to pave their section. [00:29:47] And so that's the, the question that we, we have for you all is paving of alleys. [00:29:53] Because we all, we, we see it as we've gone through the city where there are certain areas. [00:30:00] The downtown areas where it looks like that paving fits in pretty good, but then there's [00:30:05] other areas that are off of Wyoming that the homes just have that natural look and you [00:30:11] wouldn't want to do that. [00:30:13] The one thing that we agree with, though, is if you did decide to do something of that [00:30:20] nature, whether it was paving, whether it was improving them with some type of pervious [00:30:24] surface would be that there would have to be some kind of survey work, some type of [00:30:31] engineering work to where we would make sure that drainage issues we wouldn't be creating. [00:30:37] And then the other thing is what I have seen is you pay a little more for the pervious [00:30:42] material, but to me, after a few years, yep, it starts getting all, the grades are all [00:30:52] over the place. [00:30:53] If you do pervious concrete, an example like that is now, or those blocks, now all of a [00:30:58] sudden you've got the dirt that starts to pile in them and that pervious material all [00:31:03] of a sudden is just like throwing asphalt down. [00:31:07] The issue, and Frank made a good point of it when he talked to me, was that one of the [00:31:14] uses for these alleys would be to get the garbage trucks off the streets and picking [00:31:20] up their trash from the alley side. [00:31:26] And I'm no expert, but he tells me that a garbage truck is about the heaviest thing [00:31:32] that you can possibly put on the road. [00:31:35] And assuming that that's true, you probably do want to have asphalt. [00:31:40] The concern, and it was expressed to me in a guy that emailed me today, was that if we [00:31:49] do that and we put a regular base and asphalt down of a type that's sufficient so a garbage [00:31:57] truck can drive over it, we definitely need to pay attention to the potential drainage [00:32:04] issues and make sure we've dealt with that at the same time so we don't flood somebody. [00:32:09] I think as we address this, we'll probably be at a long-term situation. [00:32:17] Start with some of the ones that might have a base, already have some asphalt, redo them. [00:32:23] Just like our paving of our streets all of a sudden, the people that are questioning [00:32:29] will be like, oh man, that's beautiful over there, for lack of a better term. [00:32:34] And they'll want it done there. [00:32:36] So I think we'll change people's attitude because we'll have done it right with the [00:32:40] drainage, the look of it, and address the foliage around it. [00:32:45] It would lead us to the next question, though, because the residents that live adjacent to [00:32:54] all of those alleys are direct benefactors. [00:32:58] They receive that from that alley. [00:33:02] So is it fair to pave their road, basically, or their alley, and then make the other residents [00:33:11] that don't have an alley share in that cost, or not? [00:33:16] The answer is yes, it can be. [00:33:19] In fairness, it's something that we've discussed up here, and I think it can be. [00:33:23] I mean, it's just that over at Gulf High, it doesn't necessarily go to Sims Park very often. [00:33:28] But he's paying for Sims Park, and he's paying for the quality of life in New Provincial. [00:33:33] And I ask that only because of the direction from you all is exactly what Councilman Altman [00:33:40] had pointed out. [00:33:41] There's a cost associated with it, and so if your policy was for the city to start doing [00:33:47] something like that, then now that lets us know that in the next year's budget or the [00:33:53] year after that, that we start putting capital dollars in there to go ahead and incorporate [00:33:59] 100% of those improvements, or, you know, that would be your direction. [00:34:05] Let me toss out just a wild dream where this could work. [00:34:12] We've got some streets that are grossly oversized, Wyoming, Delaware, Montana, to name three. [00:34:24] If we fixed up the alleys on either side of one of these streets, one of the things that [00:34:33] would become possible, because you're allowing people to park in in the back of their properties, [00:34:40] you could take a serious look at reducing the size of one or more of those streets and [00:34:47] putting a multi-use path right down there from Grand over to Madison, which is one of [00:34:57] the things we've talked about for trying to link the Grand Boulevard slash Marine Parkway [00:35:04] Trail with the other trails that lead out ultimately to the Suncoast Parkway, and it [00:35:11] becomes a lot easier if you don't have a bunch of on-street parking on those streets, but [00:35:17] to do that, you've got to be able to have some way for these people to get in and park [00:35:21] their cars, and the alleys, I think, are an obvious solution. [00:35:26] Well, I had some time this weekend. [00:35:30] It seems like we have more than five miles of alleys because I rode them all on my bike. [00:35:36] If you got your truck down some of those alleys on my bike, you've got a monster truck. [00:35:41] I picked up a flat tire, but I made it. [00:35:46] It became very obvious to me that a couple of things. [00:35:52] One, that the alleys are an asset to the property owners, and they're all different types of [00:35:57] assets. [00:35:59] Some of them, great backyards, garage. [00:36:02] Some of them for the boat parking. [00:36:04] There are other utilities. [00:36:05] There are classic car parking, whatever carports. [00:36:08] Some for their junkyard. [00:36:11] I saw some alleyways and backyards that would make some of our neighbors up there in Shady [00:36:16] Hills look like mansions, but nevertheless, it was an asset to that property owner there. [00:36:27] I also believe that because that's an asset, whether it's perceived or not, that if it's [00:36:32] maintained and can be utilized, that that will in turn increase the property value of [00:36:38] houses that have alleys that we, long range, we might get a little bit more property tax [00:36:43] for those folks. [00:36:45] Is there a situation where some kind of formula would work out there? [00:36:48] Definitely, the property owner gets a big benefit, but I think the city does, too, an [00:36:54] incremental amount that will last for a long period of time. [00:36:58] The other thing that I will mention, and Robert, you talked about some of them near town were [00:37:07] paved and upkept and so forth. [00:37:10] This is not 100%, but I saw a very obvious direct correlation with the condition of the [00:37:18] alley with the condition of the properties next to the alley. [00:37:24] Interesting observation. [00:37:25] So that if you had a messy alley, you had a lot more messier roads, or messier backyards [00:37:31] and upkept and piles of junk and all that kind of stuff. [00:37:35] Where you had the nicer alleys, you had more, it appeared to be more regular use of and [00:37:43] maintained usage of alleys in and out. [00:37:46] Now that was just a general observation for me, spending 10, 12 miles on my bike, riding [00:37:53] up and around and trying to figure out where these went. [00:37:56] Why? [00:37:57] Well, yeah. [00:37:58] So you had to go down and back. [00:38:01] Okay. [00:38:02] Dead ends. [00:38:03] That's an interesting observation. [00:38:05] And so, I mean, that was, you know. [00:38:09] I'd like to play off of that logic because one of the things I did was assessment methodology [00:38:15] in the CDD world when they used bond money to build the infrastructure in the communities [00:38:22] and then you have to assess the value to all of the property owners as they're paying [00:38:27] off the bonds, right? [00:38:28] So your point is well taken and go back to us raising the bridge on Grand Boulevard. [00:38:34] You know, and we all had that discussion here that you raise the bridge on Grand Boulevard, [00:38:38] you're going to see property values rise and our whole CRA strategy is to rising property [00:38:45] values. [00:38:46] So I think you hit the nail on the head there, Mike. [00:38:49] I mean, and this is why I'm kind of resistant to having this, what has been a cumbersome [00:38:56] process. [00:38:57] I went through for many years these assessments and we had to use the rec center to have assessment [00:39:04] hearings and you turn neighbors against each other when you start asking who's for and [00:39:09] who's against. [00:39:10] The next thing you know, you've created some problems in the neighborhood with people. [00:39:14] I like him and he doesn't like me. [00:39:16] So I think the city needs to take the leadership here and actually say this is what we can [00:39:21] afford to do, this is where our problems are, this is our process and then not to kick the [00:39:27] can down the road, but I think it's premature to start talking about letting alleys decide [00:39:33] here and there when they want to put you through the process of all of those committees and [00:39:38] all of those issues that you have and go like we did with the street assessment and say [00:39:44] okay, how do we get the ones that aren't functional where the properties are in the worst shape [00:39:51] because you're right. [00:39:52] You go through some of those East State streets and you see crap in the backyard and we've [00:39:59] got code enforcement that's looking at the front yard and we can hardly complain in the [00:40:04] backyard when our own crap is back there, which is what it looks like. [00:40:11] I had an opportunity to have some conversations with people and I asked them how they utilize [00:40:17] alleys and just general conversations, right? [00:40:22] Some of them just use it to park their boats, some just do that, but I think we owe it to [00:40:30] all the property owners about alleys to say this is the plan. [00:40:37] Whether it happens next year, five years from now, or eight years from now, this is where [00:40:42] the city is going, so plan accordingly. [00:40:44] If we can only do so many alleys each per year budget-wise and so forth, much like we [00:40:49] used to treat, then I think what we do is we go to the alley people and let them apply. [00:40:54] We've got 100% people that want it now and we can line up the alleys that we improve [00:41:01] based upon the interests of the residents in a pecking order. [00:41:05] We're going to get to them all, but those who have the most... [00:41:10] Yeah, we can help with that, but I think the property owner's got to put some skin in the game. [00:41:19] The willingness of them to do that might be one way we decide which alleys we do first. [00:41:25] The only thing there is, and I kind of lean a little bit that way, but also we got assessments [00:41:32] on our streets and they gave us the 20-year list of how we should go about so that we [00:41:41] can stay on top of it before we're getting more deterioration. [00:41:44] So I think sometimes if you look at this one on the right, it would behoove us to get that [00:41:50] one in the beginning versus the one where we've got to take trees down and the one with [00:41:56] the dead ends and some of those. [00:41:58] But I think we're going to have some kind of monies put into the package and we use [00:42:04] our money the best so we get the most product to show the public. [00:42:09] They love seeing Congress done. [00:42:11] They love seeing Madison done. [00:42:13] They love... [00:42:15] Roads aren't pretty, but they sure were pretty when they were redone. [00:42:18] That has been amazing to me how positive the response has been to the pavement management plan. [00:42:23] Robert, question. [00:42:26] We've got five miles plus or minus of alleys. [00:42:31] How many miles of streets do we have? [00:42:34] Seventy. [00:42:36] Is it 70? [00:42:38] So it's a relative... [00:42:39] The alleys are a relatively small component of the total asphalt we would have in the city. [00:42:45] If we raised our assessments from $85 to $95, would that give us a sufficient amount of funds? [00:42:57] Has anybody looked into that kind of numbers? [00:43:00] We've got to get more engineering and base work done rather than just... [00:43:04] If I might, it's going to be kind of hard, especially these alleys that are totally overgrown [00:43:10] trees and everything to kind of assess them based on their alley versus assessing other people in different alleys that maybe not need a bunch of work. [00:43:20] I mean, I get what Calvin Peters is saying about skin in the game, but I almost feel like at first here, you know, I guess we kind of let these alleys go. [00:43:29] So we need to kind of get them back up to snuff. [00:43:32] And then like right now, the alleys are back in shape now. [00:43:36] After this, it's going to be assessed just like you do your streets and everything else. [00:43:40] Well, we don't assess streets. [00:43:41] We assess everybody in town. [00:43:43] That's what I mean. [00:43:44] That's what I'm saying, yeah. [00:43:45] Assess everybody, yeah. [00:43:46] Oh, okay. [00:43:47] So if you all don't mind us continuing this dialogue, because I think we're getting somewhere, because I can... [00:43:53] Your skin in the game argument and your argument, Robert, not argument, but your point that there's a benefit, a special benefit goes back to the evaluation of benefits. [00:44:06] So if we drew a circle around all of the original downtown streets and said, okay, those streets are going to get an extra $15 a year because they have the alleys, [00:44:17] then that answers your question and your skin in the game question. [00:44:21] And we do it in one shot. [00:44:23] And we do it the right way in the alleys that we decide based on evaluation and engineering and how we should drive. [00:44:29] But see, the more we... [00:44:31] The same as saying the more we dress up downtown, it's going to affect the people that don't have alleyways. [00:44:38] It's going to affect their tax base. [00:44:40] It's going to affect their... [00:44:41] People want... [00:44:42] You know, it's going to grow everybody, you know. [00:44:44] So to sit there and say, oh, these people are only the ones that are paying the $15, I think the whole town benefits just because... [00:44:50] Well, this is the bridge we're paying for that benefits them or the rec center that everybody doesn't use or whatever. [00:44:57] Right, correct. [00:44:58] So I'm not really for it. [00:45:00] having more skin in the game when we're at eight and a half mills and people are [00:45:03] saying, what do I get for my money? Some people think the only thing they get is [00:45:07] their garden. But that's a different way of going, we're working at the pavement, I'm looking at the [00:45:10] pavement assessment, not the, not the millage. I understand, but it's still [00:45:14] extra tax. It's a tax, that's how we dress it up. And somebody will say that. I would say... [00:45:25] Alleys, when we had John the postman here and talking about what alleys we used at, [00:45:30] and we talked about garbage, but we had this issue, I put my yard debris in the [00:45:34] back. So, I mean, I kind of want to go over to Mike's camp that he got on the short [00:45:41] end of the stick on us, kind of looking at how we pick up all of our yard [00:45:45] debris. So if we had the alleys, which is, and tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't the [00:45:51] alleys in that part of the city that have alleys the ones that cause you the [00:45:55] most tree debris piles? If you had to say... No, it's the landscapes. But I mean, the actual trees that come off our lots. [00:46:04] Illegal dumping, yes. No, forget that for a minute though, but I mean, if we had [00:46:08] replaced them with those boxes you get at Home Depot, where you would drop off, [00:46:13] not a box, but these big things and then throw all the stuff in and they pick it [00:46:16] up. I mean, we could be picking up, which is what you wanted to do, the yard debris [00:46:22] with these super Home Depot bags or whatever, because you can't fit most of [00:46:27] the branches into a garbage bag and it's a plastic and all that stuff. But what if [00:46:34] you tried to work the functionality of the alley into the yard debris pickup [00:46:39] process and maybe, since you've got, you've told us a couple hundred thousand [00:46:45] dollars a year you're using to pick up the yard debris, so maybe we could say [00:46:49] well, we'd be better off to fix the alleys and identify a better way that [00:46:53] the residents could either grab the bag or do something. Yeah, but that's five miles out of 70 miles worth of yard debris. [00:47:02] I mean, it's a good thought. I think we address that. Let's figure out what we can do with the [00:47:06] alleys and we'll figure out how we can utilize them. Right, and I think too, like [00:47:10] the mayor had said, I mean, when we look at the equation of five miles versus 70 [00:47:15] miles, maybe staff gets an estimate on what it would take and then you see that [00:47:22] number and then you make your decisions on if you want skin in the game or if [00:47:27] you have funds here or funds there or can it be incorporated into the street [00:47:33] projects that we do every year that we just now we throw two alleys a year into [00:47:39] that and you're not going back and reopening your pavement management plan [00:47:43] now I'm sure we legally we're gonna have to look and see what we can do and [00:47:49] what we can't do because we've already been in that plan now for five years so [00:47:54] I think I think if staff could get you the numbers that might make some of the [00:47:59] decisions that we're here for is going to give you guidelines on where to go [00:48:04] down the street so yeah I wouldn't say give a little bit on your part position [00:48:12] on the alley maintenance program on the city used to pay it when we assessed [00:48:20] everybody directly and I know you said it so you feel obligated to hold on to [00:48:25] that thought but there's no legal reason we couldn't use the alley maintenance [00:48:29] program but not the alley the road maintenance program to pay the full [00:48:34] costs of the roads if we did an analysis to say hey we've been doing so good that [00:48:39] we don't have all of the you know maybe we need to relook at how well that [00:48:44] programs going and whether there's the ability to legally fund what you can [00:48:49] legally fund at that rate well there's in that and short so you mean you mean [00:48:54] are you trying to save my 175,000 per year well yeah but I'm saying what I'm [00:49:00] saying you are you referring to my saying 100% of the money goes to the [00:49:04] pavement so the material and you know I mean in a typical project that includes [00:49:10] everything and we always took that out when we assess people and so when we [00:49:15] want but it's become so popular and I don't think it's a it's a crawfishing [00:49:20] back away but it was never embedded in any of the law to say let's use the [00:49:26] pavement program to do the paving where else can we get some money the other [00:49:30] place we should get money is in your your budgeted Street maintenance [00:49:35] division cost that you've used to do so much patching so the argument when we [00:49:41] first started it was if we get all the roads in shape we don't have to have [00:49:44] that road crew out there with its patching as much as it used to because [00:49:49] you were chasing patches and potholes every time the rain came between your [00:49:54] drainage improvements and your road improvements you know I think it goes [00:49:58] back to you guys again to say how can we do but I think you'd see more of a [00:50:03] return if you looked at your local option gas tax because the more we've [00:50:09] been putting down so much more asphalt anymore money that we're getting more [00:50:13] money from that in and that might be used to do what you want to do well [00:50:19] because you know we hold that thought for a minute because the you know we [00:50:23] there was some discussion it was some point in time that you know we've got [00:50:27] one more cycle to go to get the roads up to an acceptable level level and then we [00:50:34] were going to be able to go more or less on rather than a repair a maintenance [00:50:40] level to repay by neighborhoods by neighborhoods and a more cost-efficient [00:50:47] method but also there was some discussion about at that time also take [00:50:53] a look at sidewalks along those roads and I don't you know I think there's a [00:50:57] lot of sidewalks that need to be looked at and repaired so yeah I'm not time so [00:51:02] I'm not so sure about taking money from sidewalk yeah but we it's all about [00:51:08] trying to find the money and move it around right start talking sidewalks we [00:51:12] discussed X amount of months ago that there's for the main streets downtown [00:51:16] between just south of you know let's say Missouri or something like that that [00:51:21] don't have any sidewalks you know and they're in the main downtown area yeah [00:51:26] and those are those are streets again that if we we put them on a diet you've [00:51:30] got room for sidewalks easily [00:51:38] but the other thing and you mentioned it is drainage so when you start looking at [00:51:41] these roads and pavement maybe you have drainage issues I just want to take a [00:51:45] trip down memory lane about drainage too because I mentioned this to Debbie when [00:51:49] I spoke to her the last time early in my career when you would use CDBG money to [00:51:54] fix drainage I was like damn I want something more upfront and visible you [00:52:01] know and drainage was always boring but now drainage has become such a huge [00:52:05] factor with the sea level rise and all the other stuff but but when we did [00:52:11] Marine Parkway for example the engineers came in and they wanted us to do [00:52:16] something huge and when we talked to them it was like the the ponding never [00:52:22] got into the houses and created damage to the houses and how many buys a house [00:52:30] in a low flooding area and I know of a couple of them they start complaining [00:52:34] because the flood happens but it's just the so you've had a lot of attempt over [00:52:40] time to solve people's problems this goes back to spending money to benefit [00:52:44] somebody particular didn't stop the road from going through you just had to wait [00:52:48] for the rain to drain off but you pick problems all the time and go out and try [00:52:54] to identify the worst ones and try to affect them and fix them so that's kind [00:52:59] of my final comment is that we have some big problems and it creates hassles and [00:53:04] neighbors get angry and you look at it and that's the way I feel offer your [00:53:10] your street there saying maybe that could be done first and I'm and I'm [00:53:15] saying maybe the one where the neighbors really aggravated and the city [00:53:19] hasn't done anything this is the other side so you got to have tax a problem [00:53:24] for both ends kind of you know where though I just my point was it you want [00:53:29] to make you know you want to sell your product so if you go out and do it three [00:53:32] or four of them which are minimum amount of cost versus at one that takes you [00:53:37] know the big number what else we got Robert that's it I think I think we [00:53:43] skipped and jump right straight into questions because we talked about we [00:53:55] didn't talk about the pavement versus in furious yeah yeah because the other [00:54:00] outstanding issue we still have is mr. Bella's request to pay of a portion of [00:54:07] the alley behind his property at his expense we haven't really made a [00:54:14] decision as to whether or not we want him to pave the alley I just the [00:54:18] question he keeps throwing in my face is that what what we're asking him to do as [00:54:23] far as sub base and whatever the terms are in pavement are a lot thicker and a [00:54:29] lot more than we actually asked actually asked of our own streets it's the same [00:54:34] he was given the same detail that our contractors doing that we have and our [00:54:40] standards we didn't change anything he just well he just keeps saying that it's [00:54:45] more than what we asked world streets that's inaccurate information it's [00:54:49] inaccurate oh okay then that's all I need I mean whoever told him that in [00:54:57] response to looking at our specs doesn't know where our specs are well it's some [00:55:01] it's the paving guy that he's I'm just saying this is you know I'm in the [00:55:07] middle of this so his paver who we who pays for us supposedly says that it's [00:55:20] more he's not a name that's familiar to me so he is a lime rock or crushed [00:55:26] concrete but we try to stay away from lime rock well no I'm just saying no I'm [00:55:31] not saying the product I'm just saying the depth of all this he's saying is [00:55:35] deeper than what we ask our own for him when he does stuff in the city that's [00:55:40] what that's what you know it's him I'm in the middle of a conversation with a [00:55:45] beer you know I can tell you the way his the way hit what I've seen from from the [00:55:51] people that were going to do the work for him and what they say they're gonna [00:55:56] do I think it'd be an inferior product he's not even going so far as to get any [00:56:04] boring samples to find out how you know it's sugar sand what does he have then [00:56:09] I'll make you know if you want input from me is that you know we have set [00:56:13] standards we're gonna inspect it you got to provide the same standards that we [00:56:18] would expect anybody that we hire but he's willing I mean if he's willing to [00:56:22] do it but it's going to go by our rules that's well but then we talked about [00:56:26] about we talked about whether we they're gonna pay for paving we're gonna pay for [00:56:29] engineering so what if case but you might we might do the engineering and [00:56:33] say just what it calls for if you want to you know we've done a study here's [00:56:37] the time frame because it's both I mean all the neighbors both sides the [00:56:42] neighbors are all for it you know we're what he wants to pay so if he wants to [00:56:46] do it but he's got to do it by our standards he probably also needs to know [00:56:50] that we're actively talking about doing well he knows that but it's not going [00:56:54] fast enough for him we'll do what we have we told him that that you know if [00:56:59] that's what you want to do you need to build it according to our stand right [00:57:03] and you have to verify property boundary information and do some boring so that [00:57:10] we know what the subsurface materials are well I mean I mean I don't know [00:57:17] our property because we've we've gone through it um would we would it what [00:57:25] would be the expense if we did the engineering for me what somebody just [00:57:29] might do it I mean I don't you tell me to yeah I don't know I don't know why [00:57:35] what I wouldn't wouldn't want to give you an estimate because I'm not really [00:57:40] sure right but I'm just I'm just I mean it would start off with the survey we've [00:57:44] taken and actually have people call us up and say hey people are driving 30 [00:57:53] feet up on my property I'm getting ready to build a house and when you go out [00:57:57] there it looks like it lines up with where the alley would be but over a [00:58:02] certain amount of time you know a tree grew or something everybody's moved over [00:58:08] it shifted over more and more and so you would you would without a doubt so I [00:58:13] have to start off with survey work and then after you did survey work then [00:58:17] you'd have to start doing boring samples to find out what your conditions are out [00:58:21] there before you could even start your design on that section and so my [00:58:25] thoughts are you know if you let somebody do that and they build it the [00:58:29] way they want to then then it's still your property so you're still [00:58:35] responsible for what happens on on that property and the condition of it so now [00:58:40] are we out there every week having to cut out the asphalt because there's [00:58:45] failures but I'm those types of okay but I understand yeah I got the building [00:58:50] part but you know the surveying part would we do the surveying part and say [00:58:53] hey this is our property where you can build it and then you have to go by our [00:58:56] rules is that a fair offer it depends on how you how you look at it I wouldn't [00:59:04] from my perspective the dancers always pay the price of the band he's the [00:59:10] exclusive beneficiary of this portion of pavement because he wants to it to [00:59:16] service his garage so he should pay the cost unless you tell me something [00:59:22] differently well I'm just saying it's our property I want to make sure he's [00:59:26] on our property with a survey too right so do we in my mind is even [00:59:31] entertaining letting someone do something you know the county had [00:59:35] sidewalk for proposals where if a sidewalk went bad they would let the [00:59:40] resident or the owner of the property redo the sidewalk and so that there's [00:59:46] precedent for what you're saying but I didn't think that was a great idea and [00:59:51] so he's saying he hates the alley we don't have to give him a paved alley [01:00:00] But if we decide that that's an alley we want to start scraping and preparing, [01:00:05] my question is, can you do a phase one? [01:00:08] I mean, we really need like a master plan of say, we've got a survey, [01:00:12] we've got to put markers, we've got to decide where it is, [01:00:15] what are we going to use them for? [01:00:17] We don't have any master plan for this. [01:00:19] We're sitting here. [01:00:20] Or an alley management plan. [01:00:22] We do not. [01:00:22] We need to know what the uses are going to be, Mike, I think. [01:00:27] And I think we're all in agreement. [01:00:29] We want to see that asset be built up so the property values go up. [01:00:36] And so. [01:00:37] If we let him pave it, let's just go the other way. [01:00:41] OK, go ahead and do what you want to do. [01:00:43] What is the downside to us as a city for that? [01:00:46] If we held him liable, if it creates a drainage problem to the neighbor, [01:00:49] then that's going to be his issue. [01:00:51] If it has to be repaired, it's his issue. [01:00:54] It's our issue. [01:00:56] It's our property. [01:00:57] We have to maintain it. [01:00:59] It's our problem because it's our property. [01:01:02] So it's going to reflect on the rest of the. [01:01:04] So if we have to go in and fix it, then he has to pay for it. [01:01:10] Or if it goes unfixed and someone's cargaged. [01:01:12] But if you do it right the first time, then [01:01:14] if you do it according to our rules, then we don't want it. [01:01:16] Just throw that out. [01:01:17] OK. [01:01:17] All right. [01:01:18] When I see your guys in public works with their tractors, [01:01:21] like when they were out on the Pritchett's property [01:01:23] clearing up to make the parking lot you all made in, what, [01:01:26] three days or a week or whatever, that worked very nicely, right? [01:01:30] It's been working. [01:01:32] You guys have the skill sets. [01:01:33] That's why I keep going back to the $200,000 [01:01:37] or whatever we're paying for the yard debris pickup. [01:01:39] It's like you've got the equipment. [01:01:42] You could go in and say, no, but guess what? [01:01:45] We're scraping the damn alley out. [01:01:48] We'll drop some, make it functional, if that's what it is. [01:01:52] Can you do that in a way in which it benefits the ultimate solution [01:01:57] at the end? [01:01:58] I mean, can there be a phase one? [01:02:00] Let's get the alleys smooth, figure out our drainage, [01:02:03] and lay something down, like you say, crushed rock or anything that's [01:02:07] not going to be pavement that you guys could do in a fashion [01:02:11] that it would be at least functional or better than it is? [01:02:15] We're capable of doing minor areas, like the one picture that you saw. [01:02:22] Like, I'll give you an example. [01:02:24] When we have residents call us up, and they say, hey, [01:02:27] there's an area where your bucket is digging a hole. [01:02:33] And now it's gotten wider. [01:02:35] We'll go out there, and if most of the time it's dirt, we fill it with dirt. [01:02:40] If someone says, hey, it rained real hard, [01:02:44] and the last of that dilapidated asphalt has opened up, [01:02:49] then we would go get some asphalt and fill in that area [01:02:53] and do a very minimal repair. [01:02:56] But to be able to use our forces to go out, [01:03:01] we still would have to get survey work. [01:03:03] Anytime you're going to start putting base down [01:03:07] and those types of things, it just wouldn't. [01:03:10] You need to do that all in one motion. [01:03:13] You need to get the engineering done, all your survey work done, [01:03:17] and then go with it. [01:03:18] So you would be better off to do the whole thing, [01:03:21] regardless of what you were doing. [01:03:25] You wouldn't go in and pave half an alley or a quarter of an alley. [01:03:31] You would go block to block, where it intersects the streets, [01:03:35] where that drainage is going to go. [01:03:38] It just wouldn't make any sense to do that. [01:03:42] I mean, maybe I don't know. [01:03:43] But I would think that if you're going to put down [01:03:46] a base or something, just temporarily for now, [01:03:48] your drain is going to be different than you go back [01:03:50] and you're going to go back with pavement or asphalt. [01:03:53] It would. [01:03:54] So you need to know your drainage ahead of time [01:03:57] to make those corrections. [01:03:58] You don't want to crack them twice. [01:03:59] That's what I would think. [01:04:00] If you're putting asphalt down, too, you [01:04:02] might be putting some kind of drainage all the way [01:04:06] down the middle of that street. [01:04:07] It may look like this. [01:04:08] Environment. [01:04:09] Yeah, all that stuff. [01:04:10] You draw the water so it doesn't go up. [01:04:12] So you kind of got to plan for what you're going to put there. [01:04:14] Yeah. [01:04:14] Yeah. [01:04:16] We need to plan. [01:04:17] And so if this gentleman was to go ahead and put his stuff down, [01:04:21] he's at a wrong grade. [01:04:23] And then we go to paint the rest of the alley. [01:04:26] Now we've got to rip his stuff back out, [01:04:28] because he installed it at the wrong grade. [01:04:31] Correct, correct. [01:04:33] Let's go back to what he wants. [01:04:35] It's a valet. [01:04:39] He's looking at 200 feet or whatever [01:04:41] the number is down the street. [01:04:42] And that's not the project. [01:04:44] The project is one end to the other end of his street. [01:04:48] And it's going to be all done at once. [01:04:50] And it's going to be done with drainage. [01:04:51] And it's going to be done with surveying and engineering. [01:04:54] Done right. [01:04:56] Just a quick question. [01:04:57] Where are we on getting North River [01:04:59] surveyed for the sidewalks? [01:05:02] We're waiting on the consultant to give us the task order [01:05:08] so that we can bring it to you and get that moving. [01:05:11] But we are sending a letter out to all the River Road [01:05:13] residents. [01:05:13] It'll go out probably tomorrow. [01:05:18] And we're going to conduct a neighborhood meeting [01:05:20] and bring everybody up to speed on where we are [01:05:23] and gather some input from the neighbors. [01:05:28] Anything else before we break for a second? [01:05:30] Where are we with the paving, the next paving? [01:05:33] I mean, you've got ahead. [01:05:36] You're moving. [01:05:37] So we got ahead. [01:05:38] We're on schedule. [01:05:39] The contractor that is in town now, Ajax, a couple weeks ago, [01:05:45] we gave them the new set of plans [01:05:50] for the next construction phase. [01:05:52] They're reviewing it right now to see [01:05:54] if they can match the dollar amounts that's [01:05:59] in their existing contract. [01:06:01] If they can, we'll do a change order and keep moving. [01:06:06] If they can't, and they say, we've [01:06:09] got to increase it a certain percentage or whatever, [01:06:12] then I'd have to get with Debbie to find out [01:06:15] if she'd want to bring it to you, if it was worth that, [01:06:18] or we would go out to bid. [01:06:21] Well, I would think that Fleeman was his name, wasn't it? [01:06:24] Fleeman David. [01:06:25] That did the original paving assessment. [01:06:28] He did, with us. [01:06:30] And set up the original plan. [01:06:32] It wouldn't hurt to get some kind of a short-term [01:06:36] where do we stand at some point with all the condition. [01:06:43] Are we not running out of bad roads now, pretty much? [01:06:46] The really terrible ones? [01:06:48] We're getting to the point now where [01:06:50] I think we're going to be able to start. [01:06:51] After this construction phase project is done, [01:06:56] we should be in a position now where [01:06:58] we can start taking neighborhoods and do them, [01:07:01] instead of, so yes, we are caught up. [01:07:07] Well, maybe that's the time to dovetail the alley plans in, [01:07:09] since they are what we need right now, overall. [01:07:13] I don't think we need to go back to that guy to get scheduled [01:07:19] down the road, though. [01:07:21] I think we've got the schedule. [01:07:22] We don't need to go. [01:07:23] Right. [01:07:23] OK. [01:07:24] Just the condition, though, when they did the original thing, [01:07:27] they did a drive-by and gave us the condition. [01:07:29] So I'm just curious, and maybe you guys can do it. [01:07:32] Because you know what was category 1, 2, 3, and 4. [01:07:36] You did the same with the alleys. [01:07:37] My last pitch on the alleys is the really crappy ones, [01:07:41] it would be nice to get them to where [01:07:43] you could drive across them without flattening your tire. [01:07:46] And I'm with Mike. [01:07:49] As long as we leave them the way they are, [01:07:51] we're going to have the problems with the occupants that we have. [01:07:58] Well, yeah. [01:07:59] So can we recap, but you guys understand what we talked about? [01:08:07] Can we do a summary real quick? [01:08:09] So there is no vacations. [01:08:11] You're not interested? [01:08:13] We're not interested. [01:08:16] You, absolutely not. [01:08:20] You want to? [01:08:21] Go ahead. [01:08:22] I thought you were struggling. [01:08:23] I was going to jump in. [01:08:24] Sure. [01:08:25] Go ahead. [01:08:26] You're wanting us to go ahead and do an assessment of those alleys. [01:08:32] We want to get an estimate on what we think [01:08:36] it would cost for those five miles. [01:08:39] Come back to you all with some type of game plan [01:08:43] that calls that out so that you all can make your decisions as far [01:08:47] as budgetary items and how much you want to spend, [01:08:51] what kind of methodology, whether it's 100% city or however. [01:08:57] And we want to reclaim. [01:08:59] We got it. [01:09:00] We want to reclaim. [01:09:01] We're not done. [01:09:02] Oh, OK. [01:09:03] Give us a chance. [01:09:04] We got it. [01:09:06] Vacation and reclamation, right? [01:09:08] Yeah, well, that's what I was, OK. [01:09:10] Well, that wasn't in the same category. [01:09:12] Start the reclaiming of the alleys. [01:09:16] We take in, start getting in there and let the contractor finish up [01:09:21] with the maintenance that he's doing. [01:09:23] Then we follow up and take a look at the condition of the alley surfaces [01:09:28] itself to see if there's any way that we can clean up some of those. [01:09:35] And then go from there. [01:09:36] I think that's it. [01:09:37] Investigate some alternate funding sources. [01:09:39] Excellent. [01:09:40] One comment, Robert, that I got from a homeowner about the contractor [01:09:45] cutting back, he indicated that, he expressed to me [01:09:48] it looked like that they'd cleared it out [01:09:51] and then they'd dumped at the end of a dead end alley. [01:09:54] But maybe that's, they didn't haul it off. [01:09:56] OK. [01:09:57] So. [01:09:57] Do you have the location? [01:10:00] Got to go five miles on his bike. [01:10:02] No, no, no. [01:10:03] It was one of the ones that we were looking at vacating up there, [01:10:08] alley one over there by Polk Street, I believe. [01:10:12] I think that's where there's a church on one side. [01:10:17] And I think it's down that church side going west. [01:10:28] While they're summarizing, I would love to get an understanding of the summary [01:10:32] of where we stand with the yard debris thing. [01:10:36] I mean, I know there was a talk about us potentially having a site [01:10:42] where people could deliver it and not have to put it in their yard or any [01:10:45] options, but we didn't seem to come to a real consensus about it. [01:10:49] No, we were going to have a work session, and I'm due to schedule that. [01:10:55] Shortly. [01:10:56] I want to get your budget. [01:10:57] And my wife was thrilled to death to see that you're actually [01:11:00] doing the pipe work on Palmetto before you pave it, [01:11:07] as opposed to the other way around. [01:11:08] And we've tried to look at that with those items. [01:11:12] One more communication item. [01:11:14] It looks like they started working again on the Jasmine Park seawall. [01:11:21] They had stopped for two or three weeks, is that what? [01:11:24] Because I was going to ask about that, but then I saw they came through and [01:11:27] broke the sidewalk. [01:11:28] The whole company just about had an outbreak of COVID. [01:11:36] And it shut all of their jobs down. [01:11:39] I'll share that also with my wife, since they were doing some work. [01:11:43] And this contractor has worked with the city, [01:11:45] and we've never had any problems with it. [01:11:47] So, you know, I just had to mention that that was a question. [01:11:52] I haven't talked to Robert about it yet. [01:11:55] Great. [01:11:56] Well, if there's nothing else, we'll hop on. [01:11:57] And Nebraska parking lot was opened today by Robert and Barry.

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3. 3Adjournment