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   2020 Downtown Stormwater Infrastructure Analysis – Downtown East Section of Bridge

   discussed

   ECT Inc. consultant Robert Johnson presented the Downtown East Stormwater Infrastructure Analysis covering ~22 acres on the east side of the river with six outfalls (N1-N3 to Orange Lake, W1-W3 to the river). The analysis found N1-N3 have adequate capacity but W1, W2, and W3 need upsizing (24″→30″, 15″→24″, 30″→48″) at an estimated construction cost of approximately $1.4M plus design fees. Council discussed alternatives including using the vacant lot across from Hacienda Inn as a holding pond, sea level rise/backflow preventers, and funding mechanisms; staff requested direction to add the identified deficiency projects as an addendum to the existing stormwater master plan.

   • direction:Council discussed and was asked to direct staff to add the identified deficiency stormwater projects as an addendum to the existing stormwater master plan; council also asked staff/consultant to explore alternative concepts such as a holding pond on the vacant lot across from the Hacienda Inn. (none)

   📍Adams Street📍Grand📍Lafayette📍Lincoln and Main📍Main Street📍Missouri and Adams📍Montana📍Orange Lake📍Sims Park🏢Beef O'Brady's🏢Environmental Consulting and Technology Incorporated (ECT)🏢Hacienda Inn🏢Kaiser University🏢Southwest Florida Water Management District (SWFWMD/Swift Mud)🏢Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council👤Casson👤Judy👤Matt👤Ms. Mann👤Robert Johnson👤Robert Rivera#5-year/10-year/25-year/50-year/100-year storm design events#Baffle boxes#Downtown East Redevelopment Area#Downtown Stormwater Infrastructure Analysis#ERU / special taxing district funding#Gateway redevelopment area#N1/N2/N3 outfalls to Orange Lake#Pervious pavement / rain gardens / green infrastructure#Sea level rise / backflow preventers#Stormwater Master Plan addendum#W1/W2/W3 outfalls to Pithlachascotee River

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   [00:01:06] That being said, the next item is our downtown stormwater infrastructure analysis. [00:01:12] Thank you. This is a project that Mr. Rivera has been working with Environmental Consulting and Technology Incorporated for some time. [00:01:25] The purpose of the study is really twofold. To determine if our stormwater collection system is appropriately sized to include for future development, [00:01:43] and to determine what costs might be associated with upgrades that are necessary so that we can make appropriate funding decisions as it relates to the capital expense associated with those improvements. [00:02:05] The district that we looked at first is referred to, I think, as downtown east, is it, Robert? [00:02:13] Yes, ma'am. [00:02:14] And it incorporates basically on the west end, Beef O'Brady's, on the east end, Adams Street, on the north side is Orange Lake, and then it spans to Montana. [00:02:32] There are a couple of different reasons that it's important to do this study. One relates to the different design standards that are used for rainfall events. [00:02:43] The second relates to sea level rise, which the city is particularly suspect to for a couple of different reasons, and I'm sure that the consultant will introduce those as part of the presentation this evening. [00:02:59] But I'll turn it over to Mr. Rivera. [00:03:01] Let me just add that Matt said he's got an appointment and won't be able to make it. [00:03:06] Okay, thank you. Did you hear that, Judy? [00:03:11] Before I turn it over to Mr. Johnson, the direction that we would request of council is that you do review the analysis, and then the direction that we would request from you is that we would like to add the deficiency stormwater projects that have been identified in the analysis as an addendum to the existing stormwater master plan that we have. [00:03:36] Mr. Johnson? [00:03:38] Good afternoon. My name is Robert Johnson. I'm with ECT in Tampa, and we've been working on this project for a little while for Robert. [00:03:46] And really, as Ms. Mann said, there's several things that we looked at in this. [00:03:52] First, we kind of did an inventory of what drains the downtown redevelopment area east area, and then the second thing would be to determine if the outfall systems that they have have the capacity to keep the area from flooding. [00:04:07] And then if they don't, what do they need to be upgraded to, and what's the cost for that going to be? [00:04:12] And then we also looked at some other options of, as she mentioned, resiliency, sea level rise, and different rainfall events. [00:04:20] So I'm going to go through that, go through our little presentation we have here. [00:04:27] So as was mentioned, the downtown redevelopment area is about 22 acres on the east side of the river. [00:04:33] And basically what we found is there's actually six outfalls that drain the area. [00:04:39] Three we call the north three, and then there's areas that drain to the west. [00:04:44] And the three to the north drain basically to Orange Lake, and the west one is drained directly to the river. [00:04:53] I know these are probably a little bit hard to see from back a ways, but these are the north three that drain up into Orange Lake, and then we have the west three that drain this area. [00:05:07] And this red area is what we're calling the downtown redevelopment area east. [00:05:17] What we did is we used the GIS data available from the city and other as-built plans we got from the Water Management District to try to come up and see what areas are draining where. [00:05:27] So this is the first area. This is the north one area, and the drainage area it has is about 16 acres. [00:05:37] These brown lines, basically all these little brown lines drain to the different inlets and then pipe systems that come down and then go into Orange Lake. [00:05:47] So about six and a half acres of this drainage basin is actually outside of the downtown redevelopment area. [00:05:56] It basically drains all the way even past City Hall all the way down and then up into Orange Lake. [00:06:06] The second area is the north two basin. It's about 2.7 acres just to the south of Orange Lake near Sims Park. [00:06:17] The outfall it has now is a 24-inch. The N1 outfall is a 42-inch pipe right now. [00:06:27] The third area is the largest area. It's got basically a 60-inch outfall, and it drains quite a ways down in the watershed part of the city all the way to the north, [00:06:40] combines with this area to the north, and then drains up Adams to Central and into Orange Lake. [00:06:46] And its drainage area is about 49 acres, and about 46 acres of that is outside of the redevelopment area, or about 94%. [00:06:54] As I mentioned, three outfalls that drain west directly to the river. [00:07:02] The first one we call W1 basically drains along Main Street, drains areas of Sims Park, the hotel, a couple areas on the south side. [00:07:15] It drains directly to the river, and that pipe right now is a 24-inch pipe. It's about four acres of area draining to there. [00:07:22] This area is primarily all within, except for a little bit of Sims Park area, all within the downtown redevelopment area. [00:07:29] W2 is a small basin here, and it's a 15-inch pipe right now. It's about two acres. It's all within the downtown redevelopment area. [00:07:44] Also, for the most part, and really it has the only area that's not really got a lot of development on it just yet. [00:07:52] Third area, W3, it's got a 30-inch outfall, and its drainage area is about 34 acres. [00:08:04] About 28 acres of that is, again, outside of the downtown redevelopment area, which is this purple line here. [00:08:11] A lot of it extends all the way down, drains up, and then through and out by Lafayette into the river. [00:08:18] Once we identified what was going where, we did an evaluation of the capacities and what they can handle. [00:08:30] We looked at three different storm events, a five-year event, a 10-year event, and a 25-year storm event. [00:08:44] Based on the flows we had and calculated, we determined that the outfalls in 1, in 2, and in 3 [00:08:51] had adequate capacity to be able to handle the runoff from each of those events. [00:08:57] Outfall W1, W2, and W3 should all be increased. [00:09:01] W1 from a 24 to a 30-inch pipe, W2 from 15 to 24, and then W3 from a 30 to a 48-inch pipe. [00:09:13] One other thing I'd like to mention is we also looked at if the downtown east area was redeveloped totally, [00:09:20] with 80% impervious area, would these systems be able to handle that redevelopment? [00:09:25] Again, we came up with these pipe size for that. [00:09:31] How far do these pipes run? [00:09:34] I'll show you in just a second. [00:09:45] Although a lot of the outfalls can meet their flow capacity to handle the runoff, [00:09:51] there is a stormwater treatment requirement by the Water Management District that you have to meet. [00:09:55] Any new impervious areas would have to meet that. [00:09:59] Currently, in 1, in 2, and in 3, they drain to baffle boxes that have been installed by the city [00:10:04] and or to Orange Lake for treatment prior to discharge to the river. [00:10:09] Those were taken care of, but W1, W2, and W3, they discharge directly to the river. [00:10:16] This is our concept plan for upgrading the W1. [00:10:24] This is probably, as you can see, probably a couple blocks long for this outfall. [00:10:29] 30-inch? [00:10:30] That's 30-inch. [00:10:31] We're going from a 24 to a 30-inch pipe right here. [00:10:36] Is it off the road or is it in the road? [00:10:42] I'm not sure where I'm at. [00:10:43] I'm not sure where I'm at. [00:10:44] What he's proposing? [00:10:45] Where is it now? [00:10:48] The 24 is off the side of the road. [00:10:49] Correct. [00:10:50] Okay. [00:10:55] Right. [00:10:56] These inlets are in the roadway here and pick up runoff from the roadway. [00:11:00] Also, some of this water drains down into the road and picks it up here. [00:11:03] And, of course, runoff comes in here and it's picked up and then discharged to the river. [00:11:08] This system basically just drains this pretty small area, [00:11:12] and this is Vifo Brady's right here. [00:11:14] And right now, there's only a 6-foot drainage easement through there, [00:11:18] so if we were going to upgrade this pipe, [00:11:20] we'd probably have to acquire some additional easement to be able to put that pipe in [00:11:23] and to be able to maintain it. [00:11:25] So this would go from a 15-inch pipe up to a 24-inch pipe. [00:11:28] And you can see there, that's only about a block long or so. [00:11:33] This is probably the longest and largest one. [00:11:35] This is where we're going from a 30-inch pipe up to a 48-inch pipe, [00:11:39] starting all the way over here at Grand, all the way down to the river, [00:11:44] and adding a few manholes to be able to join into several of the existing systems that tie into that. [00:11:51] But, again, this system comes all the way down from the south and then ties in, [00:11:55] and there's a lot of drainage. [00:11:58] But, again, this system comes all the way down from the south and then ties in, [00:12:01] and there's several offshoots that tie in as well that we have to pick up to be able to include. [00:12:11] Once we went through and calculated the size of the pipes, [00:12:15] we came up with a cost estimate for them. [00:12:18] And the cost estimate we came up with was included inlets and pipes, [00:12:22] the manholes, any pavement replacement we had to do. [00:12:25] We also included backflow preventers to keep the water from backing up during high tide cycles, [00:12:30] and then also baffle boxes for stormwater treatment for W1, W2, and W3. [00:12:35] And so you can see the estimated construction costs we came up with, [00:12:39] $374,000, a little more than that for W1, a little over $280,000 for W2, [00:12:45] and $745,000 for W3, because that's the largest and longest of the pipe systems to replace. [00:12:56] I think I'm, sorry about that. [00:13:01] So we also looked at some resiliency issues. [00:13:04] So there was talk about doing something different than the regular design storm events, [00:13:09] five-year, 10-year, 25-year. [00:13:12] And currently what we're following is city criteria and swift mud criteria for the sizing of the outfalls. [00:13:19] So the city currently uses a 25-year event, so that's what we've been looking at. [00:13:25] But there has been discussions about maybe increasing the storm event to look at either a 50-year event, [00:13:32] which is a higher rainfall amount, or a 100-year event, which is even higher, [00:13:35] to try to take into account some of the climate change issues with increased rainfall. [00:13:40] But as of right now, there haven't been any changes to the regulatory rules. [00:13:45] That could be done in the future. [00:13:47] But once we get to final design, we could look and see where we are with all that [00:13:51] and add additional rainfall to it. [00:13:55] Of course, that would probably make the system have to be a little bit bigger, [00:13:59] which, of course, would increase the cost, so we need to consider. [00:14:08] The other item is sea level rise. [00:14:11] So, of course, sea level rise is happening. [00:14:15] Of course, there's a lot of debate on how much it's going to increase over the years. [00:14:21] But what we've been looking at is anywhere from six inches to a foot and a half to two feet [00:14:27] in the next 20 years or so, so 20, 30 years. [00:14:31] So, again, depending upon what the city wants to do, [00:14:35] we could add backflow preventers, which I included in the cost, [00:14:38] and what that would do is they would basically allow water to flow out [00:14:41] but not allow the high tide to come back in and create shallow flooding problems [00:14:45] or restrict any of the flow from the pipes. [00:14:48] So we've included that in there in the cost right now. [00:14:51] Again, when we get to final design, we can evaluate whether those are necessary [00:14:56] at all the outfalls or maybe only a couple of them. [00:15:00] we have them included. [00:15:01] I'm going to ask a question that might probably be silly to a professional like yourself. [00:15:06] These large pipes that come out and drain into the river, on a high tide, how does the [00:15:12] rainwater drain? [00:15:13] Let's say we have a substantial amount of rain in two days and we have a storm offshore [00:15:17] that's holding the tides in. [00:15:19] How does that water drain if the tidal water is covering the pipe? [00:15:24] It's all based on head, so if the tide is up and the water's here and it comes up, it [00:15:28] can still push some of the flow out. [00:15:30] Now, will it take a longer time to drain? [00:15:32] Yes. [00:15:33] Part of the problem with the high tide, plus you say you have a king tide, is then the [00:15:37] water backs up and can come out of the inlets in some places creating flood hazards or whatever. [00:15:42] That's why we want to, during a king tide situation, you'd have a backflow preventer [00:15:46] to keep that from happening. [00:15:49] It'll basically keep the water from flowing back and coming out of the inlets. [00:15:52] Even on a high tide, that rainwater from our downtown streets is draining through those [00:15:58] pipes even though the tide may be over the top of the pipe, it's still draining, just [00:16:02] not as fast? [00:16:03] Just not as fast. [00:16:04] That's correct. [00:16:05] Until we go through another tide cycle and it comes down, that's when the water can get [00:16:08] out of there a lot faster. [00:16:09] You say you're putting it in the north ones that are already there, but in the west ones, [00:16:13] is my right? [00:16:14] Correct. [00:16:15] Okay, we're going to be adding some kind of treatment to the water? [00:16:18] Yes. [00:16:20] Right now, we have baffle boxes proposed, but of course, there's other things you can [00:16:23] look at. [00:16:24] Pervious pavement, rain gardens, lots of different green infrastructure type things we can include [00:16:32] with the design. [00:16:33] That's included in those prices that you have? [00:16:34] Yes, it was included in the prices. [00:16:37] Right now, we have a baffle box that's been used similar to what's been used up on the [00:16:40] north outfalls that go to Orange Lake. [00:16:42] We've used something similar to that. [00:16:45] Have we tested the water as it is now? [00:16:47] We have done some testing. [00:16:52] I can get that information for you. [00:16:55] Right now, we're not considering impaired waters. [00:17:05] After we've gone through all this, we have sizes, we have costs, then how are we going [00:17:11] to pay for it? [00:17:12] That's always a challenge, of course. [00:17:16] It's likely that the city would have to pay for it initially up front. [00:17:20] Potentially, we could get some swift mud cooperative funding for maybe a couple of the outfalls, [00:17:26] but whether we go try to finance them through another method, an ERU basis or developer [00:17:33] bought credits, special taxing districts, what have you, that would have to be looked [00:17:38] at a little bit further. [00:17:40] Basically, what you could do, though, is look at the cost of the credits for a 25-year event, [00:17:46] and then based on the number of parcels you have contributing, you could come up with [00:17:49] a fee to have those people pay. [00:17:52] Then they would not have to provide stormwater treatment for their redevelopment once they [00:17:55] redeveloped in that area. [00:17:57] But there's a few problems that we have. [00:18:03] The first, if you're going to expand beyond the 25-year level of service to, say, a 50 [00:18:09] or 100, that's going to increase the cost, so we would need to know that to build that [00:18:12] into our calculations. [00:18:14] Also, we didn't really do any detailed modeling or survey or anything of this yet, so that [00:18:19] would have to be finalized or in final design to tweak maybe the pipe sizes a little bit. [00:18:26] We didn't really talk with any agencies yet about this. [00:18:28] We're still kind of at the very conceptual stage right now. [00:18:32] That would have to be done. [00:18:34] And then, of course, for W1, a lot of the parcels are already owned by the city, so [00:18:38] trying to do a taxing district for that one, you know, the city already owns it, so most [00:18:43] of the property there, so you really wouldn't be able to recoup a lot of money from that [00:18:47] one. [00:18:48] W2, as I mentioned, we do need an additional easement from Beef O'Brady's, potentially, [00:18:54] to put the pipe in or come up with another outfall location for that pipe. [00:19:00] And then the third thing is, for W3, only 16 percent of the area is within the downtown [00:19:05] redevelopment area, so we'd have to figure out how to prorate that somehow, because a [00:19:11] lot of the basin is actually outside of that area, so, you know, would you tax all those [00:19:15] people as well, or, you know, how would you work that out? [00:19:17] So we haven't gotten to that level yet, but just things to think about, so. [00:19:23] And I think that's all I had, so I'll be happy to answer any questions. [00:19:29] I just don't quite understand the difference between 25 and 50, or 100. [00:19:35] So, when you, are you proposing we're going to get more water because of the... [00:19:41] No, no, I should have explained... [00:19:43] Talking about the 25, 50, 100 year storms, right? [00:19:45] Storm events, correct. [00:19:46] So it's basically the size of the storm, how much rainwater comes down. [00:19:48] Correct. [00:19:49] So, say for a 25 year storm, it's usually about 7 to 8 inches of rain in one day. [00:19:54] So, for 100 year, we're talking about 12 inches of rain in one day. [00:19:57] So that's kind of the difference in your size. [00:19:59] So if you have more rain, you're going to need a bigger pipe to get the water out of [00:20:02] there. [00:20:03] Mayor, I have a question, and maybe for Mr. Rivera, when's the last time these pipes [00:20:08] were worked on? [00:20:09] How long has it been since we've looked at something like this? [00:20:13] We maintenance them annually and inspect them annually. [00:20:16] When's the last time they were replaced? [00:20:18] Like, when were these current pipes put in? [00:20:20] I'm not sure when they were put in, but I know it's been longer than 30 years. [00:20:26] Except for, well let me take that back, except for the system that goes down Missouri and [00:20:31] Adams, we upsized that about 20 years ago. [00:20:37] That's at 72, I think that dumps into Orange Lake. [00:20:41] That was actually less than 20 years ago, because I was on council at the time, and [00:20:48] there were some issues, particularly along Adams Street. [00:20:54] Apparently the public works department back in the day was a little fast and loose with [00:21:03] where they put stuff, and so as our team came in to try to redo the pipes, they kept running [00:21:12] into pipes and other utilities underneath Adams Street that weren't marked on any of [00:21:18] the maps. [00:21:21] And that delayed completion of that project, well Robert, probably a year and a half or more. [00:21:28] At least. [00:21:29] It was a major mess, and mostly in that couple of blocks from Main Street to Central. [00:21:40] So, can we go back to the picture, the overhead picture that shows where your outfalls are [00:21:46] and where they're running? [00:21:47] I think one of the things I would like to see, I always like to see alternatives, and [00:21:53] there was a point when, the one that shows the Hacienda and the vacant lot, I think you [00:22:01] had it maybe zoomed in a little bit. [00:22:03] Oh, the west one? [00:22:04] All of those trees in there. [00:22:05] The west one? [00:22:06] Okay, sure. [00:22:07] There you go. [00:22:08] So, those pipes that are on the south of the road that are all going into the river there, [00:22:14] and the one on the north side that goes past the Hacienda Inn, all directly into the river. [00:22:23] It reminds me of the capital plan for the lake some years ago, where the plan was to [00:22:32] put another bigger pipe to let the water go from the lake in. [00:22:36] And instead, you ended up with the weirs and the manipulation of the lake, and Robert, [00:22:42] I don't know how many times you've lowered that lake with pumps in anticipation of storms [00:22:46] to be able to catch some of that in case of a high tide event, keeping it from backflowing. [00:22:51] Correct. [00:22:52] So, they've used the water body of the lake as a holding pond so that it doesn't back [00:22:58] up when the tide is high and slow down and not get out. [00:23:01] And when I look at the cost of adding new pipes, digging up all the road and putting [00:23:07] it in, I would like to see an alternative plan that could be kind of more of a master [00:23:12] plan concept. [00:23:14] You're over a million and a half dollars by the time you add your design fees and pass [00:23:20] it, pop it up. [00:23:22] You know, if we could, if we owned the vacant lot across from the Hacienda, and we created [00:23:31] a pond not as big as Orange Lake because it's a much lesser acreage, and try to duplicate [00:23:38] or replicate that, we create a recreation area and a holding area and maybe allow more [00:23:44] density around it. [00:23:46] I know there's a lot of folks who've made movement from Mr. Casson on down to try to [00:23:51] acquire that for a public purpose, and I'm not sure what the developer's plans are, but [00:23:56] he's not come around as anticipated since the first of the year. [00:24:00] And Deputy Mayor, as you've mentioned, the development opportunities in the Gateway is [00:24:07] kind of where we wanted to push some of the density to preserve the historic neighborhood [00:24:12] there. [00:24:13] That monster tree on the corner of Lincoln and Main, for example, it would go in a development [00:24:20] plant. [00:24:22] I just would like to see us get a little more creative to say, this is plan A, this is your [00:24:29] – and I don't want to say typical, and I appreciate all the analysis that you've [00:24:34] done, but I wonder if there is a potential for you to create a large recreational pond. [00:24:42] I know that's been something that we looked at with the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council [00:24:47] and they showed that pond by Kaiser University and Sunfest and all of that, but before we [00:24:54] invest a couple million dollars in pipes and tearing up the roads, which we may have to [00:24:59] do anyway, I would be curious to see what we could do by way of preserving open space [00:25:07] and doing something that treats the water before it gets it into the river, or putting [00:25:15] something to catch the trash before it goes in is one thing. [00:25:18] The oil off the roads, the metals that are pulled out by the cylinders that you have [00:25:24] now going into Orange Lake, that lake has never looked better than it has since they [00:25:29] put all of those environmental enhancements into it. [00:25:33] And then that water goes into the river. [00:25:38] You've got environmental in your name, I don't know, do you feel that any of that [00:25:42] is worth even looking at or contemplating, or is it pie in the sky, because I tend to [00:25:47] do that once in a while? [00:25:49] No, I think that's definitely an idea. [00:25:51] I guess we were going under the assumption that a lot of the redevelopment area would [00:25:56] be redeveloped for either parking purposes or building purposes or whatever. [00:26:00] If there's opportunities that open space should be included, we could definitely look [00:26:05] at that. [00:26:07] One of the drawbacks, though, is it's kind of a small area and it's unfortunately [00:26:12] kind of up on the hill relative to where the outfalls are, so we're not going to [00:26:17] be able to get too much water into that to provide a lot of treatment volume itself, [00:26:22] because the lot is relatively small. [00:26:24] You would need something the size of Orange, or half as big, so it's relative. [00:26:31] But it's something we could look at to determine how much treatment we could get [00:26:35] and look at what kind of areas we could drain to it. [00:26:37] That's pretty easy to do. [00:26:38] But you mentioned this green infrastructure, and that is so popular with the folks moving [00:26:43] in and the whole electric cars, green infrastructure, chickens in the front yard, you know, the [00:26:52] whole deal. [00:26:53] Mr. Mayor, my opinion on that, I'm always up for looking at alternatives for sure. [00:27:01] No one likes digging up concrete and replacing pipes. [00:27:04] It's a dirty job. [00:27:05] It takes time. [00:27:06] It slows a lot of things down in our city. [00:27:08] My initial response to that one particular alternative is that Grady Prison property [00:27:12] is much, much, much too valuable to be putting a retention pond in there, especially when [00:27:16] we have a retention pond, i.e. Orange Lake, right on the other side of the park. [00:27:21] And the economic impact of that potential parcel of land, $1.4 million does look like [00:27:26] a lot of money, and it is a lot of money, but I think the long-term economic impact [00:27:31] of that parcel of land would pay back on a much greater scale over the years and years [00:27:35] and years by developing that property. [00:27:38] You can develop it in a hundred different ways. [00:27:40] I just wouldn't, personally, my opinion is fine with alternatives, but my first instinct [00:27:47] is that I wouldn't want a retention pond at Grady Prison. [00:27:50] May I follow up on that? [00:27:52] Of course. [00:27:53] I wouldn't talk about a retention pond, but as he mentioned, there's green infrastructure, [00:27:57] there's interesting ways in which they channel and allow water to percolate and try to treat [00:28:02] it that are part of a development plan, and that's why I mentioned the word recreational [00:28:08] in some respect, I don't know. [00:28:11] But I think it's worth it when you're spending a couple million dollars to try to think about [00:28:16] what the ultimate design is, and obviously we need to find out what, A, the owner has [00:28:22] in mind, and B, if he doesn't have something in mind on that property, what potential it [00:28:28] would have for us to turn it into the type of development that Walter Kass and the historical [00:28:34] people want, and how does that, does that mean saving a few trees, does that mean a [00:28:39] little less intensive development, which is what the advocates have been saying, but still [00:28:45] economic development. [00:28:46] I agree with you, I wouldn't want a retention pond or a fence around anything, but I think [00:28:52] water is a resource, it can be recreational. [00:28:54] What about, going back to the map where you've got the west number three, which is like 48 [00:29:02] acres to the south, something like that, how far south does that go? [00:29:08] I can't read what the street is way down here to be honest with you, but it's, here's Maine, [00:29:13] so it's probably. [00:29:14] Can you tell me the end of the road right above it, I might be able to pick that one [00:29:16] out if you tell me. [00:29:18] I mean is it Gulf? [00:29:20] Looks like Louisiana. [00:29:21] Yeah, I think it's Louisiana. [00:29:24] My thought is that there's a large portion of property catty-corner to Leading Tower, [00:29:30] but that's not that far. [00:29:32] So the timing of this, when we would implement this plan, is something you put into the long-term [00:29:38] capital improvement plan and figure out where the funding is? [00:29:41] That's correct, Councilman. [00:29:43] Right. [00:29:45] And I would say funding sources would be typical ones that we normally reach out to first as [00:29:49] far as appropriations or grants. [00:29:52] It would go into the CIP program, probably a little bit later this year. [00:29:57] Okay. [00:29:58] Thank you. [00:29:59] Thank you. [00:30:00] towards maybe fourth, fifth year before we get going, once we identify the concepts on [00:30:09] how we're going to proceed. [00:30:10] If we say yes, then we'll be out of here. [00:30:14] Yes, sir. [00:30:15] I've personally witnessed tidal water coming up through our drainage pipes and through [00:30:21] grates. [00:30:22] I mean, I think it was Hurricane Hermine when my parents' house flooded, Astor Drive, I'm [00:30:26] not sure the name of the road, I don't have it on my phone, but where Luna Vista comes [00:30:30] off and that side road that runs parallel with US-19, there's a drainage area right [00:30:35] there that literally the tidal water came up through there, out by 19, down Luna Vista [00:30:41] onto Astor, and in a matter of probably 45 minutes, we had three feet of water in the [00:30:46] street. [00:30:47] I mean, not three feet, probably a foot and a half to two foot. [00:30:48] I've never seen anything like it. [00:30:50] Is there any way we can implement, just without tackling this project right away, put some [00:30:56] kind of backflow devices in these pipes for hurricane season? [00:30:59] I mean, not this one, obviously, we're in it, but in the near future, or is it something [00:31:03] that has to be done when you rip all the pipes up if the city decides to go that route? [00:31:08] I mean, they can be installed at any time. [00:31:10] I guess what we were looking at is once we were going to put them in when we had the [00:31:14] ultimate design done. [00:31:16] Right, but if that's seven, eight, nine years down the road. [00:31:18] That's true, that's true. [00:31:19] But you could do them now. [00:31:20] They're not cheap. [00:31:21] They're probably $20,000 or $30,000 a pop, depending upon the size of the pipe, so they're [00:31:26] not cheap. [00:31:27] And then we went and did the project eight or nine years down the road, we'll be changing [00:31:31] them all because of the size of the pipes. [00:31:32] Yeah, because they won't fit the pipes, right? [00:31:33] Yeah. [00:31:34] So they're expensive then. [00:31:35] I mean, you could go through and identify which ones are the most critical and maybe [00:31:39] do those first, and then look at the other ones later. [00:31:43] We have done that. [00:31:45] We currently do that in some of the areas that you're talking about. [00:31:48] We've put those flex-tied valves on some of the outfalls. [00:32:02] The idea of assessments or special taxes, considering our commercial properties alone [00:32:06] are paying eight mils and more than they do in the county. [00:32:10] To me, I've gone full circle in my, going back into the 80s when I first got involved [00:32:17] in the city, from doing infrastructure projects, the streetlights, the first, actually, Wendy [00:32:23] Brenner did them because I was out of office by the time they finally started building [00:32:26] them, but the streetlights, the streetscaping, the infrastructure, then how do we encourage [00:32:34] what Charles is trying to do, getting people to invest and come into the city, and then [00:32:40] it was incentives that we gave money to developers. [00:32:43] Now I think the answer for us in the long term is with the resiliency thing in particular [00:32:48] is that we invest our money in infrastructure that will attract the developers. [00:32:52] We're doing that with the parking garage decision, and so I think from a timing standpoint, when [00:32:58] we see somebody that's going to invest money and we can contribute to help to provide the [00:33:05] drainage that the agencies are requiring or provide that, that it's a, it's a qualified [00:33:14] cost for our CRA, and we just saw those huge numbers of revenue that's coming into there, [00:33:20] so I would rather look to say this can be a redevelopment incentive and get that private, [00:33:27] you know, build it along with the private instead of building the pipes and then having [00:33:31] a developer come in and say he wants to do something different. [00:33:34] So it's almost like this is great to have this data and knowledge of what has to be [00:33:39] done, so it's a great first stop. [00:33:42] I think it's something that's going to be useful for any developer who wants to develop [00:33:45] in there, and maybe, you know, they come up with ideas, and a lot of times they have the [00:33:52] drawings and the plans that can excite development. [00:33:55] I think you make a valid point about the cost, and if we look at our total budget, including [00:34:00] the general operating budget, the capital expenditure budget, the CRA budget, we're [00:34:06] what, close to $60 million. [00:34:10] On an annual basis, in the grand scheme of things, doing a $1.5 or $2 million stormwater [00:34:15] project where that cost conceivably could be spread out over some period of time is [00:34:22] not that insurmountable. [00:34:24] I don't know that we would necessarily want to go to the citizens and say we need to do [00:34:31] a special assessment to make this happen. [00:34:34] I'd be more inclined. [00:34:36] It would be reimbursed by SWIFTMUD for a portion of it. [00:34:39] Yeah. [00:34:40] Go for the grants. [00:34:41] Certainly. [00:34:42] Yeah, certainly. [00:34:43] And that's absolutely right. [00:34:44] I think we're pretty much unanimous to keep moving forward. [00:34:48] Yeah, keep a look on it. [00:34:50] Certainly, you know, look at the backflow preventers, and that probably makes sense [00:34:56] to be looking at citywide. [00:35:01] I hope that your estimate of what we may be looking at, sea level rise, is correct because [00:35:08] Mr. Altman and I have heard some numbers that are far more frightening. [00:35:13] They are frightening, yes, and it depends what year you're looking at and which graph [00:35:19] and which line. [00:35:20] One of the mid-high estimates for 2021 was somewhere in the 6 to 8 foot range, and our [00:35:28] downtown sits at 12, and that starts becoming seriously scary. [00:35:33] And that's what makes it so difficult because, unfortunately, the sea level rise thing has [00:35:37] become so political, just like everything else in our country, it's, what do you believe? [00:35:42] You know what I mean? [00:35:43] Some people don't believe in a period. [00:35:44] The other people say, you know, have Florida be underwater in 20 years. [00:35:48] It's such a variation. [00:35:49] It's become so political. [00:35:50] It makes decisions like this, for policy makers like ourselves, extremely difficult. [00:35:55] It really does. [00:35:56] It really does. [00:35:57] But I am concerned, also, about moving on this project because of the quality of the [00:36:01] water that's going in the river. [00:36:02] I agree. [00:36:03] I mean, I agree with the mayor and with all of you that it's something that we need to [00:36:06] move forward on. [00:36:07] I don't think it's something we need to try to assess or impose on business owners or [00:36:10] property owners. [00:36:12] Our millage rate is still, in my opinion, higher than we probably would all like for [00:36:15] it to be. [00:36:16] We have assessments. [00:36:17] We have paving management assessment. [00:36:19] We have streetlights. [00:36:20] You know, you look at your tax bill, there's a bunch of stuff on there already. [00:36:23] I don't want to add anything else at this point. [00:36:25] So I think it's something we just need to try to work into our capital improvement program [00:36:28] if we go this route and look for SWFMA grants, do everything we can to get reimbursed. [00:36:33] And certainly, if we can do something with one of those catch baskets or baffles on, [00:36:42] again, not just these three, West 1, 2, and 3, but pretty much any of the outflow pipes [00:36:52] that we've got around the city that are going out into the river. [00:36:55] I mean, those, again, are not usually expensive in the grand scheme of things. [00:37:01] And they're not. [00:37:02] And I will tell you this, that when we do apply for these grants, there are water quality [00:37:07] requirements in all the projects now. [00:37:10] So like an example, downtown, any improvements that we do, all the catch basins get the baskets. [00:37:16] That's because in the downtown area, you get a lot of bottles. [00:37:19] They'll catch those. [00:37:21] We'll do the CDS units and the baffle boxes that he's talking about, especially if we [00:37:25] don't have retention, detention ponds to where we can treat the water that way. [00:37:30] So in every project that we do with stormwater, there is BMPs that are elements of those projects. [00:37:38] Can this be, since we're looking really at three of them, can it be in three phases? [00:37:42] I mean, can we start with the one, you know, closer to downtown first, because that's where [00:37:48] more of the pollution is. [00:37:50] Sure, sure. [00:37:51] I understand what you're saying. [00:37:52] And I would... [00:37:53] Eight or nine years down the road, you know. [00:37:55] I would approach it the same way, and I would recommend that we approach it the same way [00:37:59] that we did in our previous master plan. [00:38:02] The previous master plan that we had before the recession hit, and typically the master [00:38:06] plans are about 10 years, stormwater projects are expensive. [00:38:11] We had a lot of projects that were in that master plan that were in excess of $2 million, [00:38:17] $1.5 million. [00:38:18] Well, when the recession hit, obviously there was no way we could build those, so instead [00:38:23] of stopping, what we actually did was we just did an updated master plan, and we took those [00:38:28] existing projects and we cut them into, we cut them in half, we cut them in quarters, [00:38:35] whatever it took to where we could phase these projects in, and as the years went by, we [00:38:40] just kept working at it. [00:38:41] So when I look at some of the numbers that Robert's proposed on these projects, my first [00:38:47] thought is, well, we look at how much money that the utility is bringing in at its current [00:38:53] state, we take and see what grants are available there, and if it means that we have to make [00:38:59] one project two phases, then we make it two phases, but I think the important thing is [00:39:04] that we keep moving. [00:39:05] Yeah, yeah, and especially the one downtown, because that's going, the smaller one I think [00:39:10] is actually, it's the 24 going to 30, that's where I think most of the pollution is. [00:39:16] Sure. [00:39:17] Yeah. [00:39:18] Okay, anybody, other comments? [00:39:22] The acreage was interesting to me, the 20 acres in the downtown redevelopment area that [00:39:27] you identified, just two things, one, the whole city is a redevelopment area, so there's [00:39:32] really no differential between the funds that come into the CRA or the, there's no isolation [00:39:39] of the dollars into that area, but it just seemed like if you have a 20 acre area to [00:39:45] the east of the river, that maybe our next step is to look at how big we want, or how, [00:39:51] whether we broaden out the redevelopment area for our downtown as we take it out to the [00:39:56] highway, because if we're going all the way to SunTrust and back, that little tiny run [00:40:01] out there that we have now, if we want our city to grow, we know it grows to the east [00:40:09] and Montana and out towards Congress, but the real potential, I think, is walkable to [00:40:16] the downtown, and that's what, planning, Debbie, how, if that's something, those are the interesting [00:40:25] things that I think that might come out of this as well, to balance that river right [00:40:32] in between and have our downtown to look at redefining it. [00:40:36] Right, one thing, I have preliminarily looked at the west area, and there really is only [00:40:40] one to two outfalls instead of these six that we have in this particular area, so it'll [00:40:45] make things a lot easier on the west side. [00:40:47] One of those is Acorn Street, right? [00:40:51] Yeah, I think so. [00:40:53] Okay, well thank you. [00:40:55] Next item is the alley management plan.

   This text was generated automatically from the meeting video. It is not a verbatim or official record. For exact wording, consult the video or the city clerk.

3. 3

   Alley Management Program

   discussed

   Staff and consultants presented a proposed Alley Management Plan, including an inventory of the city's 5.2 miles of alleys classified into four condition tiers, and processes for citizen- or city-initiated alley vacations and improvements. Council expressed strong concerns about vacating alleys, fearing it would pit neighbors against each other and devalue properties, and gave direction to make alley vacations very rare/special-case only and to consider incentivizing alley-facing garages. No formal vote was taken; the item was a work session discussion.

   • direction:Council directed staff that alley vacations should be very rare and limited to special cases (e.g., fully obstructed or single-owner blocks), not driven by neighbor petitions. (none)
   • direction:Council expressed interest in exploring incentives to encourage alley-facing garages and driveways to support property values and neighborhood character. (none)

   📍Delaware📍alley between Jefferson and Madison📍off of Grand🏢First Methodist🏢Genesis Half🏢Longleaf🏢North Bay Hospital👤Councilman Davis👤David Fleeman👤Debbie👤Frank Starkey👤Robert Rivera#Alley Management Plan#Alley improvement process#Alley vacation process#DRC process#Environmental Committee recommendations#Land Development Board#Pavement Management Plan (2017)

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   [00:41:00] Thank you. [00:41:02] The alley management plan was originally introduced to you about a year ago, just, in fact, under [00:41:09] a year ago, and it was after the pavement management plan had been adopted by the city, [00:41:17] that was adopted in 2017. [00:41:20] At the time that the pavement management plan was adopted, there were no provisions [00:41:27] for alleys. [00:41:29] The thinking at the time was that there's no benefit to alleys, or it only benefits [00:41:37] the property owners that abut the alley. [00:41:40] That's not true. [00:41:43] Alleys provide an incredible benefit to the city, to neighborhoods. [00:41:49] There are instances where it's appropriate to close, but those, I think, as we come through [00:41:55] the presentation this evening, you'll find to be far and few between. [00:42:01] And when we presented this to you just under a year ago, you directed the city staff to [00:42:09] get some input from the environmental committee. [00:42:14] And in short, the environmental committee said three things. [00:42:19] They said don't vacate alleys, they said don't pave alleys, but if you do pave alleys, [00:42:26] use an impervious surface, and they said if any of our existing alleyways are encroached [00:42:33] upon by any buildings or other accessory type structures, that they should be removed. [00:42:42] With that being said, we continue to work with Mr. David Fleeman of Genesis Half, and [00:42:49] of course, Robert. [00:42:51] And what we proposed is that you accept an inventory of alleys. [00:42:58] We have 5.2 miles of alleys in the city. [00:43:03] They are in varying conditions. [00:43:05] They've been classified into four tiers of conditions, and with that, we have provided [00:43:16] for a process for both citizen-initiated and city-initiated alley vacations. [00:43:25] The thing that we did when we originally proposed it, when it was by city application, [00:43:35] you could do one of two things. [00:43:37] You could say just vacate the alley, and when you vacate an alley, half is transmitted to [00:43:46] the property owner on one side of the alley, and the other half is transmitted to the property [00:43:50] owner on the other side. [00:43:53] In most cases, there's an easement maintained within the alley for utility purposes and [00:44:00] for servicing utilities. [00:44:03] The other process for citizen-initiated petitions was a mechanism by which to finance improvements [00:44:15] to alleys, and as it was proposed to you at the time, we proposed that the property owners [00:44:22] abutting the alley bear the cost of improvements, and that didn't sound at the time as if it [00:44:29] was completely embraced by all of you, so we'll need to talk about that a little bit [00:44:35] more as we get into the presentation this evening that Mr. Rivera and Mr. Fleeman have [00:44:40] prepared for you. [00:44:43] With that, Robert? [00:44:44] So I think it's important to let you all know that, you know, the alley management plan [00:44:51] that we came up with and that we proposed, the only items that we recommended in that [00:44:56] plan were the vacating of identified... [00:45:00] side alleys that were no longer accessible or usable. [00:45:05] Other than that, the plan just included elements that staff and [00:45:11] council and the city manager deal with from time to time from [00:45:15] residents that are requesting that we vacate or that we do [00:45:19] different types of other pavings and those types of things. [00:45:23] And so the proposed plan that we submitted is just a plan that [00:45:29] goes through the different processes. [00:45:31] Now, while the environmental committee reviewed it and they [00:45:36] recommended no paving of the alleys, we basically said the [00:45:41] same thing in the report. [00:45:42] In other words, with our process of calling out and [00:45:50] saying, OK, if the benefiting property owners want their alley [00:45:54] paved or they want it improved in any way that they would bear [00:46:00] the cost of it, kind of deflects people from being able [00:46:05] to just say, oh, let's just pave our alley. [00:46:07] There's a whole process and criteria that you've got to go [00:46:10] through. [00:46:11] And as an example, we've had, and it's not as big as what we [00:46:16] think it is, we've only had two paving requests in the last [00:46:19] three years. [00:46:21] And so the items that we have included in the plan kind of [00:46:24] give you step-by-step on how to get to those areas. [00:46:29] But it also tells you that everyone would have to go [00:46:33] before the city manager if we're vacating anything, those [00:46:37] types of things. [00:46:38] It has to go before council. [00:46:39] So it's not like that there wouldn't be another set of eyes [00:46:43] on that. [00:46:44] And so with that, I'll turn it over to David Fleeman and he'll [00:46:46] go over the proposed plan. [00:46:48] The two that, before you go there, the two that asked for [00:46:50] paving, were they neighbors? [00:46:53] Were they neighbors that asked for paving? [00:46:55] I'm not sure. [00:46:57] It wasn't the same alley as the classroom. [00:46:59] Oh, it wasn't the same alley. [00:47:01] OK, just curiosity. [00:47:06] Good evening. [00:47:07] As this man said, the purpose of the plan was to establish an [00:47:14] inventory of the alleys that the city has. [00:47:18] And as she said, there's approximately 5.28 [00:47:21] miles of alleys. [00:47:23] The secondary goal was to develop a process for staff to [00:47:28] use to respond to citizen requests. [00:47:33] So with that, just a little bit of history. [00:47:44] This is a plat, circa 1915. [00:47:47] It's really hard to read to even be sure. [00:47:50] Sorry, did you say 15 or 50? [00:47:52] 50? [00:47:52] 15. [00:47:53] 15, 1-5. [00:47:54] Yes, yes. [00:47:55] So the alleys that we're talking about are over 100 [00:47:59] years old. [00:48:02] They're a historic part of the city. [00:48:04] But one of the things that's worth noting is most of them [00:48:07] are approximately 20 feet in width, which you'll see a [00:48:12] picture a couple slides from now. [00:48:16] A new armada is a foot wider than a Model T. So while they [00:48:21] may have worked OK for Model Ts, having a functional, [00:48:29] using them as roadways would be a little difficult today. [00:48:35] So we looked at the alley function when we were doing [00:48:38] the inventory in a logical terminus, which would be like [00:48:42] a block by block basis. [00:48:44] And one of the things we discovered when we were doing [00:48:46] the inventory is there was a fair amount of non-uniformity [00:48:52] in the level of development within the alley. [00:48:58] So some of them are paved up until the first property line [00:49:05] or the second property line, and the rest of [00:49:06] the alley is unpaved. [00:49:08] So we broke them up into block by block basis and assigned a [00:49:17] rating based off of what was generally prevalent. [00:49:24] And alleys, as was mentioned a minute ago, they provide [00:49:29] direct secondary access to the property owner's parcel. [00:49:35] And while it's part of the fabric of the whole [00:49:39] neighborhood, the direct benefit is to the adjacent [00:49:43] property owner. [00:49:45] David, if I can, I just wanted to make a real quick comment. [00:49:50] All the alleys, regardless of what type they are, we do [00:49:55] still maintain them. [00:49:56] In other words, we just completed the trimming of all [00:49:59] of the alleys so that we meet the minimum height and the [00:50:03] width requirements. [00:50:05] If it's gravel, if it's sand, and we end up getting [00:50:09] depressions and stuff like that, we will go out and we [00:50:11] will repair. [00:50:12] Likewise, if some of the alley is paved or has asphalt [00:50:16] millings, we will go in and take care of that. [00:50:18] So we try to maintain them in the existing condition that [00:50:22] they're classified. [00:50:24] David? [00:50:24] Thank you. [00:50:25] So in doing the inventory, we did a windshield inventory [00:50:29] that we weren't actually ranking the quality of the [00:50:33] pavement, we were really identifying the category of [00:50:37] the finish inside the alley. [00:50:39] And they ranged anywhere from unimproved to good condition [00:50:43] pavement. [00:50:46] The next four slides show pictorial examples of the [00:50:53] different categories. [00:50:54] So this, obviously, is an unimproved alley. [00:50:59] They're typified by having trees present within the alley [00:51:03] and brush and so forth that would make use by a vehicle [00:51:08] difficult, if not impossible, in the current condition. [00:51:14] The next more developed status is a partially vegetated alley [00:51:24] with a center. [00:51:29] As you can see and hear, there are wheel tracks where the [00:51:33] vegetation doesn't grow. [00:51:35] And that has exposed base material in it. [00:51:39] So this alley has either some asphalt millings or some sort [00:51:43] of base material that has partially [00:51:47] stabilized the roadway. [00:51:49] But at the same time, there's vegetation growing both in the [00:51:53] center and along the edges of it so that it's not completely [00:51:58] impervious and it's not completely improved. [00:52:01] So it's in a partial state of improvement. [00:52:09] This designation is what I call the conglomerated asphalt. [00:52:14] And that is, there's no vegetation present in the alleyway [00:52:26] center, but it's comprised of asphalt millings or patches. [00:52:32] And it's similar to this, which is the paved [00:52:41] asphalt, good condition. [00:52:43] It's just not in good condition. [00:52:45] So this, of course, is the fourth and the highest [00:52:48] category of classification. [00:52:51] Next one. [00:52:52] Next one. [00:52:53] I was thinking the same thing. [00:52:54] So we took all that data, and as I indicated earlier, we [00:52:58] broke it down into a block by block basis. [00:53:01] And we've created this color-coded inventory map. [00:53:05] So from the legend here, you can see the nice ones, which [00:53:11] alleys are asphalt, which was the last designation. [00:53:16] You can see there's a string of them through here, as well [00:53:19] as a few more north of Main Street. [00:53:28] The other part of the report was to develop the citizen [00:53:33] process for either vacating or improving the alleyways. [00:53:42] So as you can see in the flow chart, OK, so this is the flow [00:54:00] chart for the vacation process. [00:54:03] It begins with the interested citizen collecting a petition [00:54:06] of interest from their neighbors, followed by city [00:54:10] staff making a site visit to the alley in question to do [00:54:17] some evaluation. [00:54:18] And it culminates with going through the DRC process, land [00:54:24] development board, and the city council. [00:54:26] So while it creates a process, the petitioner would have to [00:54:34] come to city council in order to get approval of anything. [00:54:38] So it doesn't relieve or take away your [00:54:46] authority in any way. [00:54:49] Similar to that, the alleyway improvement process starts [00:54:55] with a citizen petition, followed by staff visits to [00:55:00] the field, and then ultimately culminates in coming before [00:55:06] city council for final approval. [00:55:10] What was different from the one before, other [00:55:12] than more blue bars? [00:55:14] If you're doing improvements, there would be construction [00:55:16] plan preparation and permitting. [00:55:19] And the one before was for vacation. [00:55:26] Oh, vacation, I'm sorry. [00:55:29] So there's cost estimates and plans and permitting and so [00:55:33] forth required if there were any kind of improvements [00:55:35] going to be involved. [00:55:37] And it's at that point that we'd also give an opinion of [00:55:40] probable construction costs. [00:55:43] And those construction costs would include drainage [00:55:45] calculations, as well as drainage plans. [00:55:53] I want to talk about the vacation thing. [00:55:57] And I'm going to do this. [00:56:01] This vacation thing can put neighbors against neighbors, [00:56:04] in my opinion. [00:56:12] Let's say that this is the alleyway right here. [00:56:15] And these are the lots, the 10 lots here. [00:56:24] If these neighbors get together, that's 60%. [00:56:31] And they say, we want to block it off, vacate it, we want to [00:56:33] take this over. [00:56:34] You just took the value of these people's property and [00:56:36] lowered it because they can't even access [00:56:39] their property anymore. [00:56:41] Because you're going to have just a utility connection [00:56:44] through there. [00:56:45] And they may have garages. [00:56:46] So this vacating thing, I need to know more about it. [00:56:49] Because it looks like to me it could be a neighborhood war. [00:56:55] Councilman Davis, I would agree. [00:56:56] And aside from just having detached garages, some people [00:56:59] use, they have gates back there. [00:57:02] Still, there are boats in their backyard. [00:57:04] And I've seen a lot of people that actually have boats in [00:57:06] their backyard that would not. [00:57:08] I access my place 100% of the time from the alleyway. [00:57:10] Right, would not be able to get there. [00:57:11] So I understand what you're saying. [00:57:12] It's a slippery slope there. [00:57:14] I would think vacations would be very, very few and far [00:57:18] between for exactly that reason. [00:57:22] Did you all get the email from Frank Starkey? [00:57:26] I did. [00:57:27] He put his research in, didn't he? [00:57:29] Yeah. [00:57:29] And he made some good points that if we're trying to [00:57:35] encourage people to build large multi-vehicle garages, [00:57:40] and in many cases, those probably should empty out onto [00:57:44] the alley. [00:57:49] We've got that going on right now. [00:57:50] Oh, exactly. [00:57:51] And that helps property values if you've got them. [00:57:54] And it doesn't detract from the front of the house at all. [00:57:56] And you would probably maybe have a larger house, because [00:57:59] you would utilize the property from one easement to the other [00:58:04] easement and put your garage in the back. [00:58:06] You're talking about a guy that built Longleaf [00:58:08] based on Alley, so. [00:58:10] Driven through Longleaf, you understand the [00:58:11] ports and alleys. [00:58:12] They loved the ideal that they saw downtown [00:58:15] and took it there. [00:58:16] It's his middle name, almost. [00:58:19] So when it comes to this vacating thing, there's a few [00:58:23] examples where there's a dead end to somebody's property. [00:58:26] There's a couple of examples, fine, there's overgrown things [00:58:29] that maybe we should work on taking back. [00:58:32] But a very, very, very limited situation. [00:58:37] So would it be fair to say that if we had the plan when it [00:58:41] came to vacation of alleys, that instead of having a [00:58:45] process, that it's noted that any vacation would have to [00:58:50] come before city council? [00:58:52] Well, it already says that. [00:58:53] But I just want to state that, in my opinion, there's no group [00:58:57] of neighbors that can sit there and tell me. [00:59:03] We agree with you wholeheartedly, and we're not [00:59:06] recommending the vacation of alleys. [00:59:10] The only alleys that we had included in the report was the [00:59:14] one, like an example, the one that comes to my mind is the [00:59:17] one that's over by North Bay Hospital, where you've got a [00:59:21] parking lot on one end, and then on the other end, you [00:59:25] have a lift station. [00:59:27] I have no clue how it was constructed, but no one can [00:59:31] access that alley either way. [00:59:34] So that's what we're talking about when we have that in the [00:59:38] report. [00:59:39] But your project that you just showed us here allows neighbors [00:59:41] to get together with a petition and come here and say, we want [00:59:44] to take our alley. [00:59:46] And I just gave you an example where you basically screwed [00:59:50] the four people in the middle. [00:59:52] Correct. [00:59:52] Some of the conditions, sorry to cut you off, Robert, that [00:59:57] would be considered as to whether. [01:00:00] Not an application went forward would be, are there people that rely on the alley for access purposes? [01:00:08] That didn't show in that, you know, sure it's going to go through staff, but I don't think it should ever even get to here. [01:00:15] It should be shut down. [01:00:16] I can only think of one example of an alleyway where an entire block, you could make some argument to vacate it. [01:00:28] And that's because the property owner is the same on every single parcel on both sides of the alley for a one block area. [01:00:37] And that's First Methodist. [01:00:40] And I can tell you that while that alley has, for decades, not been terribly useful, [01:00:48] it has been incredibly useful to the church for the last couple weeks. [01:00:52] Because of the pandemic, people are now doing a drive-in church service. [01:00:56] And the parishioners are now using the alley to get in and out of there. [01:01:01] I mean, there's this, you know, and there's this changing of ownership is going to change the attitude on the street. [01:01:07] Absolutely. [01:01:08] So I'm absolutely 100% with you. [01:01:10] I think it's a mistake to just vacate pretty much any of these unless it's a special case like the one Robert gave [01:01:19] where it's totally occluded and there's no way to get to it from either end. [01:01:23] Did you believe I had a special case? [01:01:26] I have a special case. [01:01:27] Okay. [01:01:28] Let me show it to you. [01:01:30] It's in Delaware. [01:01:34] This is three and a half blocks that I have been trying to figure out what's going to happen with the alley behind me. [01:01:41] It dead ends. [01:01:43] And I don't know if you could bring your chart up there to all of those on the other side. [01:01:50] So this is my home. [01:01:54] I could have access alley here. [01:01:57] This one wants to vacate. [01:02:00] This one wants to vacate. [01:02:03] And, in fact, they have fenced and captured all of that land as their own. [01:02:08] There's a big tree here, and it's a block to get in. [01:02:15] This guy wants to use it because he's got his vehicle. [01:02:19] So it kind of speaks to what Debbie just said, and to what you said. [01:02:25] I don't want to vacate any alleys. [01:02:26] I didn't have an opinion either way. [01:02:28] I just didn't like the idea that it was city land, that it was being privatized. [01:02:34] And, in fact, this guy told me he had been taking care of it so long that, you know, [01:02:40] what's the word for that imminent? [01:02:43] Adverse. [01:02:45] Whatever. [01:02:46] That he's taking it because it's his now, and he wouldn't even give up half of it. [01:02:51] So the idea for those folks was they want it vacated because it's dead end. [01:02:56] They don't want people coming in. [01:02:58] This one wants to get a boat in, and so it remains totally unresolved. [01:03:07] And, as it turns out, I've had my house up for sale, and I think I have the contract. [01:03:12] I don't know if it goes through or not. [01:03:15] So I don't have to worry about voting on it because that would happen long before. [01:03:19] Yeah, but you give a prime example. [01:03:20] You've just kind of let them do whatever they want. [01:03:23] The person that buys your property says, hey, get your fence out of here, [01:03:27] goes back to the other one and says, you know, down the road, and it becomes a problem. [01:03:33] Well, I'd like to say that. [01:03:35] There's a gate that goes to the alley that I can't use [01:03:38] because they have put fences all the way to my fence on the back of my property. [01:03:43] How is that legal? [01:03:44] It is not. [01:03:46] That's the point. [01:03:47] Yeah, but the city has done nothing to say this is my alley and I want it. [01:03:51] So, you know, a tree, you know, obviously in full attendance. [01:03:54] Houses in alleys in this city. [01:03:57] Or on the edge of the alley. [01:03:58] Yeah. [01:04:00] And, in fact, this street has one on it. [01:04:02] It's an Airbnb. [01:04:05] There's one. [01:04:06] I think it's a garage. [01:04:08] The one just off of Grand. [01:04:14] The alleyway is like this. [01:04:16] This is Grand. [01:04:17] The alleyway is like this. [01:04:19] This is the lot. [01:04:22] This person that has the house here on whatever the brick street is, [01:04:26] and then somehow somewhere along the line a house got built back here. [01:04:30] This person can only access their house here. [01:04:33] This person can't even go out and check their mail. [01:04:35] They have to go around and check it because these two don't get along. [01:04:38] And this person, though, has just enough that they can walk through. [01:04:41] They can't drive through. [01:04:44] This is a two-story house in the house there. [01:04:48] Any kind of changes here, any kind of, you know, overlooking the whole picture, [01:04:53] this person will never be able to access their house. [01:04:55] They can't get it from there. [01:04:57] So there's an attitude between these two people to go around and check their mail. [01:05:02] Okay? [01:05:04] Thank goodness for the Internet. [01:05:06] I thought I'd cut you some neighbors. [01:05:09] So I think we all agree with Mr. Starkey that the alleys are valuable, [01:05:14] and they're valuable to the city, right? [01:05:16] And to whatever degree we ought to encourage development, whether or not can you incentivize, [01:05:22] like we do the private, you know, the commercial by saying, you know, [01:05:27] if you use the back of the alley for your driveway or you build a garage on the back, [01:05:32] that somehow the city will do something to support that, to try to, like, grow those alleys out. [01:05:40] And certainly if we've got trees sitting in an alley, maybe we ought to plant another tree somewhere else [01:05:48] and cut that one down. [01:05:50] It's a biggie. [01:05:52] Well, you know. [01:05:54] Do you have more for us? [01:05:56] Yes, just a few more slides. [01:05:59] Those are the red ones, by the way, aren't they? Delaware. [01:06:02] That one? Yeah, that's Delaware here. [01:06:04] So the alleys that we're proposing to be considered for vacation are in red. [01:06:13] And the one you just described, because it's a dead end and doesn't go anywhere, [01:06:18] and it seems to be basically taken over by the property owners, would seem to be a potential candidate. [01:06:25] Yeah, I would say no, because as soon as the property changes hands, there's a whole different package. [01:06:33] What Robert says is another story, but not that one. [01:06:37] We've got a few that are isolated. [01:06:40] I believe this may only affect one parcel. [01:06:45] Again, it doesn't go through, isn't continuous between two endpoints. [01:06:52] Here's also a little island of an alley, so that's been vacated, but we've got a little island here. [01:06:58] The one I believe Robert was talking about, I believe, is this one, Robert? [01:07:07] Yes. [01:07:08] Yeah. [01:07:09] So this end has already been vacated, and this end has a pump station in it, [01:07:14] so the piece in the middle is just really a remnant. [01:07:22] And then similarly, I believe this one is completely unimproved. [01:07:29] Unimproved isn't necessarily – one ends obstructions with the pumping and stuff, [01:07:36] but unimproved is not necessarily – [01:07:39] So alley one between Jefferson and Madison, this is a picture of the two ends, [01:07:47] and I believe you can see that from around – [01:07:58] obviously there's a lot of vegetation and – [01:08:07] You're not getting a lot through there, are you? [01:08:09] You're not getting a lot through there, no. [01:08:13] This is the one we were just talking about with the pump station on one end [01:08:16] and the parking lot on the other. [01:08:19] Also alley one, different block. [01:08:22] This is alley one a little further over. [01:08:27] Is that person on the left just – [01:08:31] Mowing in his lawn. [01:08:32] Yeah, just made it his lawn, so it really isn't his – [01:08:35] I mean, he can utilize it, but it's really not his. [01:08:38] But I don't think he's done anything wrong there. [01:08:40] I would mow, too, if I lived there, right? [01:08:42] Right. [01:08:45] And that's the other end on Congress. [01:08:48] Correct. [01:08:49] So it wouldn't go through, is it? [01:08:52] Well, this one is the one that if you go a little bit towards the middle of the alley, [01:08:58] there's a huge drop. [01:08:59] There's actually like a basin. [01:09:01] So unless you had a truck, I guess you wouldn't be using the back of that alley in the middle. [01:09:08] It's a huge drop. [01:09:09] In that first picture of me, it looks like if someone drove through there, [01:09:11] I would assume someone's just driving through my backyard. [01:09:14] I mean, it doesn't even look like an alley. [01:09:16] Well, that's if the person has taken over and just taken – [01:09:19] I don't think he's taken over. [01:09:20] I think he's just mowing the grass that's taken over the alley. [01:09:22] I don't think he's trying to take over the alley. [01:09:24] I mean, if not, it's just going to be overgrown. [01:09:26] But I don't think we should vacate it. [01:09:28] No. [01:09:32] The next one is similar to the last one. [01:09:36] It's just kind of become part of the side yard of this house, effectively. [01:09:41] There's also a row of trees on the other end of the block. [01:09:45] It coincides with the drive to the church. [01:09:52] That looks all right. [01:09:54] I don't see any reason to vacate these things. [01:09:57] I mean, even the basin, if somebody bought where the basin is [01:10:02] and hadn't filled it and started accessing the backside of their property. [01:10:07] If we're letting people build houses into these lots, [01:10:12] all of a sudden there was dirt in the basin, [01:10:15] even if you put a pipe in it and threw some dirt on top of the pipe. [01:10:20] It's one thing to mow it. [01:10:22] It's another thing to build a fence to the neighbor's house [01:10:25] and to take it over and say it's mine, [01:10:27] and that's what's happened behind my house, [01:10:30] which for a short period of time it's mine. [01:10:32] I'm sure that the new owner would like to be able to ride his golf cart out of there if he wanted to. [01:10:37] Do we have any way of knowing? [01:10:39] You're talking about structures being built on these alleys. [01:10:42] When's the last time that actually happened? [01:10:44] Are we talking 60 years ago, 20 years ago, 80 years ago? [01:10:48] Yeah. [01:10:49] A long time ago. [01:10:50] Okay. [01:10:53] In my case, I think it's just fences [01:10:56] and maybe like a storage or a flower shed or something. [01:11:01] I have one or two more similar ones. [01:11:08] Is this the one we're talking about? [01:11:10] That is at Franklin Street and Grand. [01:11:12] Yeah. [01:11:13] You've got one end at the carport that's attached to the house is in the alley right there, [01:11:19] and then if you were to cut back, [01:11:22] I think the corner of that pool cage is right there on the edge of the alley. [01:11:29] And this is one that is on your agenda for vacation at your next meeting, [01:11:36] and one of the reasons that we're presenting it to you relates to the fact that it appears that it was vacated back in 1940, [01:11:50] but it did not get platted appropriately with the recording agency, [01:12:00] and people have treated it as if it's theirs, [01:12:04] and now plats have been updated and it was taken away and people have built there, [01:12:12] and now they're trying to sell some property, [01:12:15] and it's not showing an alley, or it is showing an alley, even though they own property on both sides. [01:12:22] So if I may, you're telling me that carport underneath the oak tree on the house on the left, [01:12:26] that is the alleyway and they built a carport over the alleyway? [01:12:30] Yes, sir, a portion of it. [01:12:32] And then on the other side, they pretty much built a pool cage. [01:12:35] Correct. Right on the line. [01:12:37] But when they did that, they most likely pulled permits, [01:12:41] but because it wasn't recorded properly, when the permits were pulled, we didn't even realize that was an alley. [01:12:46] That's right. [01:12:47] So I can't blame the resident for that either. [01:12:49] I mean, what a mess. [01:12:50] But I would like to see what is the title, what property do they own in their title? [01:12:54] What did they buy? [01:12:55] Yeah, what did they buy? [01:12:56] Did they just go ahead and put a permit and build it out and don't even own the property? [01:13:00] Because you can't build a pool cage on even... [01:13:05] Well, I'm just saying, you know, we're addressing the mistake. [01:13:10] If anything, it's an easement. [01:13:11] We're addressing the mistake in the building department, but what do they actually own? [01:13:16] What is their title? [01:13:18] It depends on when you pulled the title search. [01:13:21] It was different at different times. [01:13:23] That sounds like a title insurance issue. [01:13:25] It would have to be vacated if it looked like they owned it. [01:13:27] I would agree with the mayor. [01:13:29] That's a title insurance issue. [01:13:31] They ought to be going after whoever did it. [01:13:35] Well, I guess we'll learn about that when we get to our meeting. [01:13:38] We'll learn more about it next week. [01:13:40] Yeah, well, I mean, I just want the title situation. [01:13:43] I want to know when the title... [01:13:44] When did they absorb the property? [01:13:49] If they absorbed the property at some time, [01:13:50] there must have been some kind of signature off the city. [01:13:56] We do have resolution from the city, [01:13:58] but we do not have evidence that it was recorded at the time. [01:14:07] It would have been Pasco County, of course. [01:14:10] And when they exchanged plat books, when they updated it, it didn't get transmitted. [01:14:18] The ironic part is that house right there on the left is currently for sale. [01:14:21] That's the one that has initiated the application for the vacation. [01:14:26] I want to have Tim to research it for me. [01:14:28] Tim has researched it, for sure, but thank you. [01:14:31] How's it going to play out next week? [01:14:33] Because there's no public in here. [01:14:35] Are they going to be calling in? [01:14:36] The public will be here next week, [01:14:38] and I've invited all of the property owners on that block to be in attendance. [01:14:46] What an absolute mess. [01:14:50] That's the way I felt about my property for a long time. [01:14:55] My first thought is you can have a structure on the property, [01:14:58] but you don't have development. [01:15:00] paperwork that says that it's theirs? I was envisioning like detached [01:15:05] garages encroached on the alleyway. It's just a carport attached to the main [01:15:10] structure of the house and then a pool cage attached to the main structure of the [01:15:13] house. I mean I want to see his paperwork too. Do we know, sorry, that's all I said, I [01:15:19] want to see his paperwork. Do we know if they pulled a permit for the pool cage when it was put in? [01:15:22] Because if anything you have to view it as an easement. You know what, I never [01:15:26] went back and checked. Well that's something I'd like to know by next week. [01:15:29] We can do that. That's gonna have a huge bearing on what I decide is right or [01:15:34] wrong or how we proceed going further. I have a question about the stepchild [01:15:40] street called the cross street. So we have these alleys but then we have a lot [01:15:45] of the cross streets. If you could pull up the old plat again. We call them [01:15:49] streets, right Robert, but we don't treat them quite the same as a regular street. [01:15:54] Franklin, I mean Adams is a cross street, but I guess they're regular streets. [01:16:00] They just kind of do a little of this and a little of that. They're secondary or third [01:16:09] dairy. Well I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Well we're [01:16:14] having an alley discussion but when we're talking about the condition of [01:16:18] the streets in our city, we have our main streets, Montana, Delaware, all of the [01:16:21] state streets. And then we get those crazy presidents coming in. Right, the [01:16:25] residential, residential streets. And those streets are in a variety of [01:16:31] conditions as well. So correct. That's on our plan. Right. [01:16:36] Pavement plan. Those are all on our pavement plan. Correct. Yeah. Yes. Correct. [01:16:41] Yeah. And we'd consider those residentials. Louisiana and stuff like [01:16:46] that, we would consider collectors. Right. I wonder if they put the rock there. [01:16:53] That's the entrance of the alleyway. There's a big rock in front of it. It doesn't matter because there's a [01:16:58] guy wire going crosswise. Anybody in something other than a convertible is [01:17:03] not going to get down that alley anyway. Please find out about the permitting on [01:17:09] that 4H. But we like alleys. Research is back a ways, you know. If you said it's been that long. [01:17:18] Here's another one that impinges on the alley. There's no setback at all on it. [01:17:25] And this is our last example. And as you can see, there's quite a bit of occupation built [01:17:32] right up to the alley. And the alley itself is unimproved and filled with [01:17:37] trees. You know, that's another example. I wonder what kind of permit they got to [01:17:42] build that. Well, in most cases you can't build in a vacated alley. You can't [01:17:47] have a structure there. So we'll find out. Is that a house or a garage? The one on the left. [01:17:54] I think that's a house. Yeah, he added a room. Yeah, he added a room. Franklin, that's Delaware, is it not? [01:18:02] Franklin between Delaware and Montana. So, do I understand Council's direction? We would [01:18:13] remove all of those alleys that we're talking about vacating or recommend to [01:18:18] vacate, except for the one alley that has the parking lot and the lift station. [01:18:23] And the one that we're just talking about, you all will deal with next week. [01:18:28] So that means the rest of the ones that we've highlighted here that we were [01:18:32] recommending vacate, we remove from the pavement management plan or the alley [01:18:37] management plan. Go back to that map. One second, I want to [01:18:42] point out, this is my alley again. This is what, as it comes in off of Franklin, and [01:18:48] you can see down to a point where you can't see any farther, which is where I'm [01:18:53] at at the dead end. So it is literally, no, I'm straight through. You can't see well, [01:18:58] but you almost see something in the middle of that alley going up. Tree there? [01:19:01] Yeah, there's a big tree out there. So this is Franklin, which is Grand to [01:19:08] Franklin, and then Franklin goes all the way to Lafayette. So this alley doesn't [01:19:14] make it to Lafayette, but it dead ends. But that's the, that's the... Is it [01:19:19] dead end? Is it dead end because of growth, or is it dead end because... Dead [01:19:23] ends because they vacated the link out years ago, apparently. That went back to [01:19:28] Delaware, which... Are you sure that happened? Go back to the, there was one other one [01:19:36] that you brought up in the upper left. I'm shooting myself in the foot now. [01:19:39] Why are you trying to sell your homeless in tax use? It's crazy. Right there, you had one up [01:19:46] there, was it Alley 9, or something like that? Yes. Yeah, you said that was, you know, [01:19:52] there was something about that one. What was that, what was the question? [01:20:00] Yeah, there's two of them. Well, you won the one that's written or covered with black [01:20:06] and red, the one on the left. You had some comment about that one. Yeah, that's the [01:20:12] one north of, from Ohio. That's another... That's behind PD, that's the pond. You said [01:20:25] something about that one. There was something about that one. There was, I [01:20:28] don't remember what you said, so I can't help it. I mean, it was some question like, [01:20:31] well, that one's like... That's the retention pond for the police department? It's right [01:20:35] there by that, right off of, you know, Grand Boulevard. I mean, it doesn't go [01:20:40] anywhere or something. That's the only other one that I would say that there [01:20:42] was, would look into it more, but from what you said, that was like... That's in [01:20:48] the city's garden area there, but that could be a patch of corn or lettuce or [01:20:54] something there, right? It is, in that area. Loquat Grove. That's only a block away from the [01:21:04] gym. So yeah, yeah. Just remove the recommendations of the vacations, and then [01:21:11] the ones that we've written down just come to you individually. I would agree, [01:21:15] because I don't want to, personally, I don't want the public thinking, we just got to get [01:21:18] enough neighbors. We can go for council and get this alley, you know, changed in [01:21:21] our own property. I don't want that message going out. That's not what we're trying to do here. [01:21:24] I don't want all our different departments to have to spend time doing this, and you know, the [01:21:28] Land Development Review Board and all this. It's not going anywhere. [01:21:34] The only issue left that we haven't addressed is if neighbors want their [01:21:41] alley to be improved, are you comfortable with them absorbing the cost associated [01:21:47] with the improvements? I have no problem with that, but I would speak to, you [01:21:53] know, what the Environmental Committee mentioned, if there's a way that it can [01:21:58] be improved in such a way that it doesn't create drainage problems [01:22:03] for everybody else, I think that would be important. If that's using a pervious [01:22:08] material, crushed rock or whatever. Crushed limestone or something. Yeah. And even if, I mean, [01:22:15] even if it's mulch, you know, we've got plenty of that to deliver to them. Can we do [01:22:23] it on a section-by-section basis, or do we have to do the whole street? So, I mean, [01:22:29] because that goes back to having to get everybody on the same page. Our [01:22:33] recommendation is block-to-block. Yes, I agree with that. Instead of a whole [01:22:38] alley, it's just a block-to-block. That's the eight or ten on that block. I'm with lot-for-lot if it [01:22:45] has to be. I mean, if I want my alley to look good behind me, can I... It's still [01:22:50] accessing it, you know. I mean, we would continue to maintain the alley for [01:22:56] whatever type it is. Like some of the alleys that are closer to the [01:23:01] downtown area are already asphalt. We would treat that just like a street when [01:23:06] it came to taking in and making repairs. If you have an alley that has that sub [01:23:15] base and it's already impervious, would you want us to look at [01:23:23] every improvement that we do to where we would look at it from doing some type of [01:23:29] pervious surface instead of asphalt? And then we can make that [01:23:36] statement in there that that's what we would look for first as far as [01:23:39] improvements go. So what would you plan to do for the future owner of my [01:23:46] property? You know, whatever happens here isn't going to affect that one way or [01:23:50] another, but... It's an example. As an example, will you clear the alley? Or is that... [01:23:57] Because it's in such decrepit shape, will you not spend any money to get it [01:24:04] into at least... I mean, you've got a bunch of stages. Could we try to get all the [01:24:07] alleys into a particular stage or something? Some of these pictures are not [01:24:12] the same. We took these pictures before we had the contractor go in and clear [01:24:17] some of them. Actually, they went through all of them and cut them [01:24:21] back. So some of them aren't as bad as what you see now, but if it's your [01:24:26] direction that you wanted us to tackle the ones that have put fences up first [01:24:32] and start getting code enforcement out there to notify them to move the fences [01:24:36] back, then obviously we'd get in there... Because just because we've exposed it [01:24:41] and the people are sitting home listening to it right now, some people, if they don't [01:24:45] see us, you know, actively trying to get control of this again, they're gonna say, [01:24:49] oh, I'm gonna put a fence up. I never liked my neighbor on the other side [01:24:52] anyhow. I mean, we can start there and then we can address, as we go forward, we [01:24:58] can address the ones that Ms. Manns is talking about as far as the ones that [01:25:02] have structures in them. It doesn't make sense to tell the guy to take the fence back if the tree's still there and nobody can even get through. [01:25:09] So, I mean... No, no, no, no, no. We would apply for a permit. It's all or none. [01:25:16] You don't say, oh, this guy's already because he's got his fence there. I hear [01:25:20] you, but it's senseless. I mean, it's nice, but the alley is totally useless [01:25:25] and you're not going to have any... Correct, but my understanding is like the [01:25:29] alley that you're talking about, your alley, there's a tree that's there. So, if [01:25:34] we notified those property owners to move their fences back and we reclaim [01:25:39] our right-of-way, then our next step after that happened would be to go apply [01:25:44] for a tree permit removal and remove the tree to where we can open up the alley. [01:25:48] I would start with the tree permit. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, and plant a tree [01:25:53] someplace else. Yeah, I would start with the tree permit. Yeah. Get the [01:25:58] part that we've got control of cleaned up and then tell these people that have [01:26:03] illegally expanded their yards into the alleys, hey? Some may not have done it illegally, some may have done it by permit, and we need to talk to Tim a little bit, and we can talk to him about it next week at our meeting, about how we go forward with telling somebody to remove a fence that's on our property that we gave a permit for. Yeah, I think what you might find is that some of these are on the edge of their [01:26:27] property, too, so the setback would be a violation. And then, if it's been there so [01:26:32] long, I don't know how hard-nosed we want to get. I mean, the purpose is to get the [01:26:36] alleys functioning. Yeah. You know, to me. Sure. Right? Yeah. And there may be some... [01:26:43] Well, the people that are, you know, on the property, they've done a great job at [01:26:47] maintaining their yards. It's, you know, the alleyway, which they say, well, it's not mine. [01:26:52] You know, so... And if we, you know, the example, if we gave somebody a permit to [01:26:56] put a fence over it, I mean, we may have some responsibility to help foot the [01:27:02] bill for moving that fence back where it belongs. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the [01:27:10] exception, that's not the rule, so... You probably won't find that. Yeah, they may [01:27:15] well just put the fence up and... But, if we did make a mistake, we need to right it. Yeah, absolutely. Sure, without a doubt. Yep, somebody else made a mistake, not us. [01:27:25] Just kidding. Well, this is very enlightening for me, because I had no idea it was such a mess, to be honest with you. I mean, I drive through them, but... Yeah, it is. [01:27:32] It's... I don't think I was here when we had this initial meeting. I think that was out of town or something. Okay. I appreciate, though, you, Debbie, you pushing this [01:27:41] back, because I couldn't make the work session a couple months back. No problem. Anything else on alleys? Mr. Mayor? Mr. Mayor? Nothing further. No, we have direction. I did [01:27:54] receive an email while you guys were discussing this item. Okay. It's from Ryan

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4. 4Communications▶ 1:27:56
5. 5Adjournment▶ 1:39:20