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   Presentation by Genesis Halff RE: Proposed Alley Management Program

   discussed

   Genesis Halff consultants David Fleeman and Bruce Kasich presented a proposed Alley Management Program to inventory the city's 5.2 miles of alleys, establish citizen petition processes for alley vacation and improvement, and recommend six city-initiated alley vacations. Council discussed the program, the 50/50 cost-sharing question for assessments, encroachment issues, and broader alley problems beyond the six initially identified. No formal vote was taken; this was a work session presentation with council providing direction.

   • direction:Council directed staff and consultants to proceed with developing the Alley Management Program including the citizen petition processes and the six recommended city-initiated alley vacations. (none)
   • discussion:Staff requested council input on appropriate cost-sharing percentage for alley improvement assessments, with staff leaning toward 50/50 split between city and property owners. (none)

   📍Adams East between Delaware and Wyoming📍Alley 1 between Harrison and Congress📍Alley 1 between Jefferson and Madison📍Alley 1 between Monroe and Jackson📍Alley 11 near Franklin Street📍Alley 12 between Polk and Congress📍Alley 14 between Franklin and Grand📍Alley 7 between Washington and Adams📍Alley 9 north of Ohio📍Delaware Avenue📍Queens Lane📍Wyoming between Tennessee and Louisiana🏢Dodds🏢Farentinos🏢First Methodist Church🏢Genesis Halff🏢Red Apple School👤Bruce Kasich👤Chopper👤David Fleeman👤Debbie Manns#2017 Pavement Management Plan#Alley improvement petition process#Alley vacation petition process#Alleyway Management Plan (AMP)#DRC (Development Review Committee)#Land Development Review Board

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   [00:00:26] On that note, we have one item and one item only, [00:00:29] which is presentation on the proposed alley management [00:00:33] program. [00:00:34] Ms. Manns? [00:00:34] Yes, thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. [00:00:38] Since the city spent time developing and adopting [00:00:44] the 2017 pavement management plan, [00:00:48] some talk was brought up about the condition of the city's [00:00:51] alley system. [00:00:53] The city has 5.2 miles worth of alleys located within the city [00:01:01] and includes Queens Lane. [00:01:04] Most of them are situated, or pardon me, [00:01:08] all of them are situated so that they [00:01:10] serve as a rear or service access road between buildings. [00:01:14] In our case, it is between residential structures. [00:01:21] And the purpose of focusing in on the study, which [00:01:24] we've worked with Genesis Half on, [00:01:26] and we've got Bruce Kasich and David Fleeman with us [00:01:30] this evening, and they've prepared a PowerPoint. [00:01:33] We wanted to identify all of the alleys within the city system [00:01:39] and then to rank them in terms of what improvements [00:01:44] or what improvements do exist or don't exist, [00:01:49] which should, secondarily, we wanted [00:01:52] to put in place a system that would provide [00:01:57] an opportunity for those alleys to be vacated [00:02:03] if it's appropriate to do so. [00:02:04] In the case of alley vacation, there [00:02:07] would always be a utility easement retained [00:02:12] and also a process by which to have the alleys improved, [00:02:19] which would be accomplished by way of paving. [00:02:27] As part of the study, the city determined [00:02:29] that there were six alleys in place that should be vacated [00:02:35] and that the city should serve as the applicant [00:02:38] for those vacations. [00:02:40] And I'm going to allow the consultants [00:02:43] to go through the PowerPoint of all of the specifics [00:02:47] that we're recommending that you consider this evening [00:02:50] in conjunction with what we call the AMP program, the Alleyway [00:02:54] Management Plan, so that we can get a program adopted. [00:03:02] Mr. Fleeman? [00:03:04] Thank you. [00:03:08] So this evening, we're going to process [00:03:12] through a brief PowerPoint presentation that [00:03:15] summarizes the report. [00:03:17] And there are four topics. [00:03:20] We've got a brief introduction. [00:03:22] And then we're going to explain how [00:03:24] we did the inventory, the roadway or alleyway inventory, [00:03:28] the citizen petition process, and then the segments [00:03:31] that we are identifying as recommendations [00:03:35] for city-initiated vacation. [00:03:40] Just as a brief bit of history, which many of you [00:03:44] may already know, a big portion of the downtown [00:03:48] was platted as a single plat. [00:03:51] And it's that plat that created nearly all, [00:03:58] if not all of the alleyways that we have within the city. [00:04:03] And while it's difficult to read, best I can tell, [00:04:06] it was platted in the 20s, maybe 30s, [00:04:10] at a time before we had modern cars and modern transportation [00:04:14] standards or engineering standards. [00:04:19] So these alleys would have likely [00:04:23] been anticipated to be used for horse and buggy type of usage [00:04:29] fast forward nearly 100 years. [00:04:31] And we've got some small alleys that [00:04:34] do not have any improvements in them [00:04:37] or any stormwater facilities and with limited access. [00:04:47] Following along that, kind of defining [00:04:52] what we're talking about as alleys, [00:04:54] the alley's basic function is to provide secondary parcel [00:05:00] access for individual adjacent parcels [00:05:05] with the primary access coming from an improved public roadway. [00:05:10] When we're evaluating and discussing the alleys, [00:05:12] we're talking about them as functional units [00:05:14] that, for the most part, extend from one public road [00:05:18] to another public road. [00:05:19] There are a few instances in the city [00:05:22] where we've got some dead end terminal alleys that [00:05:25] do not extend and connect from public road to public road. [00:05:29] But this becomes really more important [00:05:32] when we're talking about the user initiated either improvement [00:05:36] process or vacation process. [00:05:38] We would not recommend that the city consider vacation [00:05:42] or improvement in anything less than a block by block basis [00:05:46] so that you maintain connectivity or eliminate [00:05:49] connectivity at logical terminuses [00:05:53] between public right of ways. [00:05:55] The inventory was conducted using a windshield review [00:06:02] of the alleys and instead of using like a point scale system [00:06:06] like we did on the roads where all the roads were paved [00:06:09] and we were using a point scale system to try to evaluate [00:06:12] the quality of the pavement, we learned pretty quickly [00:06:17] that the alleys range from completely unimproved [00:06:21] and impassable to pavement that's in pretty good condition. [00:06:25] So we ranked them based on the type of condition [00:06:33] or of material more so than condition. [00:06:39] In a few moments, I'm going to present a slide that's [00:06:42] got a color coded breakdown of the four different types [00:06:47] and I wanted to provide a kind of a representative snapshot [00:06:51] of what each represents. [00:06:54] So this photograph represents what an unimproved alleyway [00:07:00] looks like and while it may be obvious, [00:07:03] but you see there are no wheel track marks. [00:07:06] Even though it's not paved, you can tell that if this is used, [00:07:10] it's used so infrequently that it hasn't even killed the grass. [00:07:14] And there are frequently trees and brush and other elements [00:07:18] in the way that would prohibit usage. [00:07:22] And the power lines on the right. [00:07:27] The next higher level of improvement [00:07:30] is what we are calling intermixed base and vegetation. [00:07:35] In this particular case, you can see small indications [00:07:39] along the route that there is some sort of a stabilization [00:07:43] or base material, but at the same time, it is not continuous [00:07:48] and there is grass or weeds prevalent through the alley. [00:07:54] But the presence of wheel tracks indicates [00:07:56] that this alley is used at least periodically. [00:08:03] Next higher grade is what I'm calling a conglomerated asphalt. [00:08:08] And this is a case where it's at least partially paved. [00:08:13] As you can see, you go a couple lots further downstream [00:08:19] and it's not paved, but where it is paved, [00:08:22] it's a series of patches on top of patches on top of patches. [00:08:26] So it's kind of a hybrid in between partly paved, [00:08:29] partly not paved. [00:08:32] And then the highest quality level of improvement [00:08:37] is an asphalt paved alley. [00:08:40] And there are a few of those in the city [00:08:42] that are in relatively good condition. [00:08:47] And this is the overall inventory map [00:08:49] that I spoke of a minute ago that has broken down [00:08:54] all of the alleys based on those four classifications. [00:09:01] And the council did receive a copy of that [00:09:04] and a packet that was sent to them in advance [00:09:06] just in case they can't read it on the screen. [00:09:09] Very good. [00:09:10] And we can make large-scale prints available [00:09:12] if that would be helpful. [00:09:17] So the next section I want to talk about [00:09:22] is the citizen petition process. [00:09:25] Part of what we were tasked with was trying to create [00:09:29] a step-by-step outline of if a citizen [00:09:34] who lives adjacent to one of these alleys [00:09:36] is interested in either vacating the alley [00:09:39] or in having the alley improved, [00:09:43] what are the steps? [00:09:45] Creating a roadmap so that they would know [00:09:47] what the process is. [00:09:49] And staff would know what the process is [00:09:51] and city council would know. [00:09:53] So all the users would know what the process is. [00:09:56] So all the users involved would be able to agree [00:10:00] and develop this process in advance. [00:10:05] So we put together kind of a decision flowchart [00:10:10] for alleyway vacation where the applicant [00:10:17] that was interested in vacating would create a petition [00:10:23] or get petitions signed that would validate [00:10:28] the interest of the surrounding neighbors [00:10:30] that are within that particular block. [00:10:33] And as you process through the flowchart, [00:10:36] there's some milestones that if they have more than 51%, [00:10:39] they kind of proceed to the next milestone, [00:10:41] less than 51%, then the process terminates. [00:10:44] And as you navigate through the process, [00:10:48] then the city would send out an official questionnaire, [00:10:52] basically a ballot. [00:10:54] Once the applicant showed that there was enough interest [00:10:57] in that block, then the city would send out a ballot [00:11:00] to all of the parcel owners based on, [00:11:04] they would be based on, we're recommending them [00:11:07] be based on the property or the property appraiser's database [00:11:13] of parcels, not necessarily the addresses of lots. [00:11:18] And this will come in later when we get into the assessments [00:11:22] for improvements. [00:11:25] The assessment will be recommended to be applied [00:11:27] per lot, not per address. [00:11:29] So if you have a triple, double lot, [00:11:32] then you would receive a comparable number [00:11:35] of assessments. [00:11:39] So as you run through the flowchart in the center, [00:11:43] we've got to tabulate the results from the questionnaire [00:11:47] and if, again, if you receive interest from the citizens [00:11:52] greater than 50%, then you initiate the vacation process, [00:11:57] request no objection letters from the utility agencies, [00:12:01] and submit a package through DRC, [00:12:07] the Land Development Review Board, [00:12:09] and then ultimately to City Council for final approval. [00:12:13] Mr. Mayor, it might be important to note that in the case [00:12:16] of a right-of-way vacation, what we're actually talking about [00:12:20] is a split between the abutting property owners, [00:12:23] and it's always 50% to each side of the property. [00:12:35] Similarly, the alley improvement flowchart [00:12:38] has the same basic methodology. [00:12:41] There are a few more milestones. [00:12:46] I'll focus on the differences instead of running [00:12:49] through each individual section. [00:12:51] The differences would be once the initial interest is indicated [00:12:57] by the citizens, city staff would review the site for feasibility, [00:13:06] and, for example, if it was full of large trees or protected species [00:13:11] or wetlands or had zero improvements [00:13:15] and was already a flood-prone area, [00:13:21] then city staff has the ability to deem the project not feasible [00:13:27] because of limited right-of-way and too many natural obstacles. [00:13:34] Similarly, the other elements are when the city sends out the ballot, [00:13:40] there would be an estimated assessment amount included in the ballot [00:13:45] so that people can make informed decisions [00:13:47] as to whether or not they want to proceed with improvements. [00:13:55] And then there's another back check [00:14:00] on what the final opinion of construction cost is, [00:14:04] and if that exceeds the original estimate, [00:14:08] then the citizens would have one more chance to vote on it. [00:14:11] Other than that, the methodology is basically the same. [00:14:15] Methodology does, though, include an appeal procedure [00:14:18] so that at any point, if a citizen doesn't feel that it's being interpreted [00:14:25] according to the program or some special dispensation should be afforded them, [00:14:31] they do have the opportunity to appeal to the city manager. [00:14:35] And then I would add, too, it's similar in a nutshell [00:14:38] to the old street assessment projects that we had, [00:14:41] and if we started moving forward with something like that, [00:14:47] our thoughts would be we would just piggyback on to the existing pavement project that we have [00:14:52] because we plan on doing those probably for the next 18 years. [00:14:56] So that would be our first option, and then we would follow the process. [00:15:00] assess as far as assessing the homeowners, the cost of, you know, shared evenly, and [00:15:05] then one of the things that we would ask, and I'll let David get back to his PowerPoint, [00:15:09] one of the things we would ask is, in this program, with those assessments, what would [00:15:14] council feel would be appropriate? Would it be 100% that the city share that burden? Would [00:15:20] it be 50%, 30%? That's a question that we would want to know. Right now, to where we [00:15:28] have, we've kind of leaned to a 50-50 type of formula, simply because, although it is [00:15:36] a benefit to the property owners that are adjacent to the alleys, there still are city [00:15:42] services that are being performed that cause to the wear and tear to those alleys, like [00:15:48] trash pick-up and yard debris pick-up. Go ahead, David. [00:15:58] If you've got any questions on this section, we can talk about it. Otherwise, we'll move [00:16:03] on to the next section of city-initiated right-of-way vacation. So, as you can see in the, I never [00:16:15] forget it. Don't give the color of blind guy, A, and that's not it. A red laser. My [00:16:32] The lights that are hung sideways are sometimes a challenge. If they hang them vertically, [00:16:54] when you standardize colors, we're all okay. Indeed. The alleys that are in bold on this [00:17:09] exhibit that have been thickened have been identified as candidates that we would recommend [00:17:18] initiating vacation on now. Each of these alleys are of the category of being completely [00:17:30] unimproved and we're going to run through and I'll show you each of them individually. [00:17:38] So there's no evidence of them being used by regular basis by residents. So the first [00:17:44] alley is alley one between Jefferson and Madison. The picture on the left is the alley [00:17:51] at Jefferson looking east and the picture on the right is at Madison looking west. So [00:17:57] you can see each end of the block looking towards the middle and with the occupation [00:18:04] and the plants and so forth, there is no indication of any improvements or any usage occurring [00:18:12] by any of the adjacent residents. [00:18:15] So I would add, if you look at the picture on the right, the hospital is directly to [00:18:20] your back off of Madison Street and if you were able to walk west through that alley [00:18:26] and turned around and looked back at that other end on the left, the Red Apple School [00:18:31] is towards your back. [00:18:43] The next one is a different segment of alley one between Monroe and Jackson. This one has [00:18:52] what appears to be a recently developed commercial parking lot across a portion of it. On the [00:18:58] other end, there's actually a city-owned pump station. So clearly that's not being [00:19:06] used and with a pump station there, it can't be used. That one would be one we would recommend [00:19:11] that we deviate from giving half to both sides. Of course, the city is going to need to preserve [00:19:18] that parcel around the pump station for public works. [00:19:26] Another section of alley one between Harrison and Congress. [00:19:31] Question. The one before that, you're talking about it was a commercial parking lot? [00:19:39] That's behind the hospital. That's that newly constructed parking lot that they've got. [00:19:44] Built into the easement, into the alleyway? [00:19:47] They bought it a few years back. They were buying up a lot of the properties and they [00:19:53] ended up buying a couple properties on either side of the alley and then requested a vacation. [00:19:59] Oh, okay. That's been vacated already? [00:20:02] That portion. [00:20:03] Yeah, that's the question. [00:20:04] I thought I had them. I was like, how'd they do that? [00:20:15] Right. [00:20:18] This is a segment of alley seven between Washington and Adams. As you can see, the church appears [00:20:26] to be using the alley as a driveway, which isn't really a problem. On one end and on [00:20:32] the west end, looking back east, you can see that it's got trees in it and... [00:20:39] With the smiley faces? [00:20:44] I did not. Street graffiti. [00:20:47] Just wanted to talk a little bit about this one. On the alley over to the right off of [00:20:57] Congress Street, as you go towards where the power lines start to disappear, this is one [00:21:02] of those situations where the alley takes a dip or there's a valley that goes down. [00:21:09] Just like David was talking earlier, the reason why we would... Because you can see where [00:21:15] some people have used a little portion of it, but we would call for the vacation on [00:21:20] that because if we were to take and improve that, open it up, we'd have to bring in so [00:21:24] much fill that we'd end up flooding the surrounding parcels. There's really no use for it. [00:21:33] It's infeasible. Physically infeasible. [00:21:40] Briefly, alley nine. This is a dead-end peninsula. It's north of Ohio. It's actually oriented [00:21:56] north-south. It does not connect from two public streets. It's an alley to nowhere. [00:22:08] It actually dead-ends to that pond that is a city-owned pond, and on the other side of [00:22:17] the pond is where the police station is located. So you're right, it goes nowhere. [00:22:27] Alley 12 between Polk and Congress. You can see there's significant vegetation on one [00:22:41] end and thick grass on the other end. [00:22:52] Alley 14 between Franklin and Grand. This segment appears to have some encroachments [00:23:00] in it. The pool cage and landscaping and so forth has kind of choked the photo on the [00:23:11] left down to a tiny strip. Similarly on the right, I believe that that carport is very [00:23:23] close, if not encroaching, into the edge of that alley. [00:23:26] That carport's been there for a long time, too. That's, I think, the theater or the potter [00:23:32] house on Grand. [00:23:38] This is one of the segments that do not connect to public streets. It's a dead-end alley, [00:23:48] Alley 11 on the very end. While a portion of the Alley 11 near Franklin Street does [00:23:56] have some usage from those adjacent lot owners, the western end of this terminal alley is [00:24:08] thickly vegetated, and we recommend that there's no value in the city keeping that to start [00:24:15] trying to divest of a dead-end alley as much as you can. [00:24:22] This one's unique because the alley stops on the other side of the oak tree on the other [00:24:29] end of that parcel, and there is no alley. It's been reflatted, but then the usage of [00:24:38] the alley didn't start until the other side of that oak tree, and that oak tree is huge. [00:24:45] So for us to open that up to nowhere, we'd end up taking down that oak tree, and there's [00:24:52] some more vegetation that goes on the other side. [00:24:58] So when we do talk about the vacation of alleys, just so that you'll know, it also includes [00:25:06] easements, so the city wouldn't be giving up everything. We would still request a utility [00:25:13] easement, and that would accommodate the electric companies, the communication companies, and [00:25:19] then most of the alleys have sewer that runs down the rear of them, and so we would need [00:25:25] to maintain some type of right to be able to get back there and work on our facilities. [00:25:36] That little yellow structure, you haven't determined if that's in the alley or not? [00:25:45] We didn't do any survey work on this. It's close. [00:25:57] Was that 14? That's the last slide? [00:25:59] That's the last slide, yes ma'am. [00:26:02] That looks like something where I'd get code enforcement out to send a notice about overgrown [00:26:11] vegetation. [00:26:12] Well, it's on the city's property. [00:26:14] Yeah, it's on the city's property as well. That's my point. [00:26:20] What's the width of these alleys? [00:26:22] 20 foot. [00:26:24] We probably have a lot of encroachment, if nothing but fences. [00:26:29] A lot of that, a lot of sheds, and there are some structures. [00:26:40] If I can, by way of full disclosure, that is my alley that goes behind my house on Delaware [00:26:47] Avenue, and that picture to the right is, if I'm correct, is right at the point where, [00:26:59] or maybe not, I don't see the obstructions, but is this the one that's backed up to Delaware? [00:27:08] If you get right past the large oak tree, that's where all the bamboo and that's where [00:27:13] the alley disappears. [00:27:14] If you get right past the oak tree chopper, there are fences from my backyard neighbors [00:27:20] that come all the way out to my property line. [00:27:22] So that alley has already been sort of sectioned off claim with fencing. [00:27:26] So that becomes the issue. [00:27:28] They're not paying ad valorem taxes on these. [00:27:30] Correct. [00:27:32] And since it's my piece, and I guess at some point I've got to say, if I'm on the list [00:27:36] of alleys that you're proposing to let go of, I'm ambivalent to it, but I do think [00:27:43] that we ought to either clean them up or make them alleys or, and this one in particular, [00:27:49] there's probably a ton of little problems that if we solve by giving it back, say we're [00:27:54] not going to use it, that's fine. [00:27:56] If you wanted to use it, then you would be going through neighbors telling them they [00:28:00] got to take their non-conforming use back out of the way. [00:28:03] The one you didn't show too, there's one, if you're going from, I think Adams East between [00:28:11] Delaware and Wyoming, it dead ends before it hits Madison. [00:28:17] It may be that we didn't show it because it's not one of the ones that we're recommending [00:28:23] be vacated. [00:28:24] Well, it would be. [00:28:25] I mean, it's dead ends because the people have already absorbed it. [00:28:29] Okay, we'll look at that. [00:28:32] That's an interesting challenge, Chopper, because that's what's going to ride on us, [00:28:36] is we're either going to reclaim our alleys if they have not been given back, and I know [00:28:41] that in that section there were a number of vacations that occurred. [00:28:45] I don't know if that one's been vacated or not. [00:28:47] I think this is a lot bigger problem than we're looking at because of the people who [00:28:53] squatted, for lack of a better term. [00:28:56] Right. [00:28:58] Trees have taken them over. [00:29:02] Probably the one on Wyoming between Tennessee and Louisiana is probably, you know, back [00:29:10] behind, Wyoming behind Farentinos and Dodds. [00:29:14] It's a flood situation in there. [00:29:16] I think that's one that you and I, Debbie went on when Debbie was a rookie. [00:29:21] I mean, there's, you know. [00:29:24] We vacated some stuff in that direction, not that one. [00:29:27] No, I mean, it's just because that whole area, I mean, you know, from Tennessee through back [00:29:33] in the, I mean, this is a lot bigger problem than this. [00:29:37] And there are a bunch of them that are just, they're sort of there. [00:29:42] I asked the chairman of our church's board of trustees and pastor to come in there in [00:29:47] the audience tonight because First Methodist has got one that goes from Jefferson down [00:29:53] to Adams. [00:29:55] And it goes right through a block that is completely owned by the church. [00:30:00] And it's, it got paved sometime in the last 100 years, [00:30:08] but it was quite a while back. [00:30:10] And there are portions of it that don't exist [00:30:14] and portions of it that are sort of there. [00:30:16] And you wonder if it wouldn't make everything [00:30:19] look a lot better if it was either grated down [00:30:22] and sodded or fixed up one or the other, [00:30:26] but it's just sort of there as an eyesore now. [00:30:29] Yeah, there's lots we can discuss. [00:30:31] Are we finished with the presentation? [00:30:33] We are. [00:30:34] Yeah. [00:30:37] Is that the alley? [00:30:37] I know when Pastor Schwartzel had his funeral there. [00:30:42] Yes. [00:30:43] That I queued up down what seemed to be an alley [00:30:45] to wait to get into the funeral line. [00:30:47] That's the one. [00:30:49] Yeah, so you're raising a question, [00:30:51] the same thing Chopper raised about drainage problems too, [00:30:53] which is we talk about our utilities and our need for them, [00:30:57] but we're also, I'm on the Peril of Flood [00:31:01] Resiliency Steering Committee [00:31:03] with the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council. [00:31:05] And when you start looking about how to deal [00:31:07] with floodwaters, you've also got every, [00:31:12] it's a recipe of all kinds of things, [00:31:16] which could include impervious and not paving of alleys. [00:31:21] It could include something that's manageable to maintain, [00:31:25] but that's functional. [00:31:27] So I'm not so sure if all alleys are going to be [00:31:35] right for asphalt, or if they are, [00:31:38] if we work in some kind of swales or drainage or. [00:31:44] This is a major, major sweeping, let's go do this at all. [00:31:51] No, it's almost gonna have to be dealt with block by block. [00:31:53] Exactly. [00:31:56] But you have to have a system. [00:31:58] You've got people that have said, [00:32:00] we don't want anything, leave it alone. [00:32:03] You do, and that's one of the reasons. [00:32:05] They don't want to pay the ad valorem tax, [00:32:07] they don't want to pay to pave it, [00:32:10] they don't want to pay to. [00:32:11] They're not gonna sign the petition. [00:32:12] Yeah, nothing's gonna happen. [00:32:16] I think. [00:32:17] One of the, I'm sorry to interrupt, Councilman. [00:32:20] One of the methodologies that we did put in place [00:32:25] in this program, though, is that we would have to receive [00:32:28] support of in excess of 50% of those that own property [00:32:35] on the block being considered for either a vacation [00:32:38] or an improvement, depending on what [00:32:43] those specific circumstances. [00:32:44] We're not, in my opinion, too, we're not being uniform [00:32:49] in our approach to this problem. [00:32:52] You could run down one street and then all of a sudden [00:32:54] everybody's moved their fences up and they're not doing [00:32:59] anything, you've got one that looks beautiful, [00:33:01] the next block looks like the pictures you showed. [00:33:04] Yeah, or you've got one that says I'm gonna vote against it [00:33:06] because I've already got my fence all the way over [00:33:08] to my neighbor's fence, and I've already got it. [00:33:11] I don't want to pay taxes on it, I don't want it paved, [00:33:14] I like it the way it is, it's an extra yard. [00:33:17] So I think, you know, I'm on the list of ones [00:33:22] to be vacated, if there's no good argument to keep it, [00:33:26] you know, I'm certainly ready to vote for the other ones [00:33:29] and let you all let it go as it is. [00:33:31] But we're gonna be taking up longstanding battles [00:33:36] of sorts with people that are individuals [00:33:39] that have either taken advantage of, [00:33:42] or they've been taken advantage of, [00:33:44] by having someone else claim that land behind them. [00:33:49] But we've also got some people that would really love [00:33:52] to see us pave those. [00:33:53] And we also... [00:33:54] Oh yeah, you say, but you've got the ones, [00:33:56] their neighbors are gonna have to have neighborhood fights [00:33:58] over it because all of a sudden they got nabbed [00:34:00] for 50% of the fees, so this is an ugly thing, [00:34:04] this is really ugly, you know, and it got this far [00:34:07] because of lack of neglect, and so you're asking us [00:34:10] to step up and start a fight. [00:34:12] Well, they're giving you a suggestion. [00:34:16] We're trying to address the residents' concerns [00:34:19] that keep coming to staff and requesting us [00:34:22] to do something in getting different answers. [00:34:27] Like you said, there's not a one answer solution to it. [00:34:32] Then I propose we take a look at the whole package. [00:34:35] We send all thousand, whatever the number is, [00:34:38] parcels a letter and say, [00:34:40] what do you want to do with your back? [00:34:42] Instead of just hearing the loudmouth 10%, [00:34:45] let's look at all 100% and see what we get back. [00:34:48] Here's the option, rather than even having that fight, [00:34:53] is to take the advice of the smart growth people [00:34:57] who said, pick a 25 acre section of town, [00:35:01] design how you're gonna work that and make it improved, [00:35:04] and that can be part of, it can be Acorn Street, [00:35:08] it can be, you know, whatever section you pick, [00:35:12] and say, this is gonna be a CRA project, [00:35:16] we feel that's gonna improve the value, the usability, [00:35:20] and the value of the property, [00:35:21] it's gonna generate tax increment, [00:35:23] and then that's a potential fundable, [00:35:26] CRA fundable project. [00:35:29] So you're looking at this as a public works department [00:35:32] and a general fund of the city council, [00:35:34] a city council work session. [00:35:36] I would say we boot this over to the CRA [00:35:39] and say, these are capital improvement projects. [00:35:41] We're here, we don't need a title to have a discussion. [00:35:44] No, we absolutely do. [00:35:46] I mean, it's us. [00:35:47] It's the same people. [00:35:48] Can I take comments from the panel? [00:35:50] Yeah, we will, but I think Pete's got a point [00:35:53] that the CRA may be better positioned [00:35:56] to do some of these improvements. [00:35:59] But we're talking about what we can afford [00:36:01] and paving management, this is all general fund discussion. [00:36:05] I'm saying you're right, this has gone so far bad [00:36:07] that so many of our alleys are in such sad shape [00:36:10] that it requires a redevelopment plan. [00:36:13] And if the redevelopment plan is gonna enhance properties, [00:36:17] we give incentives to business owners all the time [00:36:20] to fix their property up. [00:36:21] We'll give them money, we'll help them. [00:36:24] Here, this is the city's property. [00:36:26] The city's neglected it and we're saying, [00:36:28] we don't have any money to fix it. [00:36:30] We're not asking the CRA, is there a little money? [00:36:34] Can we do a section by section? [00:36:37] Can we trade off with Pete? [00:36:41] Can we negotiate with our residents to say, [00:36:44] maybe you park in the back [00:36:45] and you take your driveway cut out the front [00:36:48] and we've got street parking. [00:36:51] There's all kinds of things that could be discussed [00:36:53] by planners and people that design stuff. [00:36:56] I'd like to see a decent design, [00:36:58] not just let's just fix this problem and put paving on it. [00:37:02] Maybe asphalt isn't always the answer. [00:37:05] But I don't think you're gonna get too far [00:37:08] from listening to Chopper about us having, [00:37:13] we finally got away from the paving assessments. [00:37:16] I did those for 12 years. [00:37:18] We went to the rec center to hold them. [00:37:20] Everybody is fighting each other. [00:37:22] Chopper's right. [00:37:23] I mean, half of them are gonna be mad. [00:37:24] It'll be battle against neighbor, against neighbor. [00:37:26] Once you ask them to contribute and pay, [00:37:28] then we've just created a whole battle. [00:37:32] Am I right, Chopper? [00:37:33] I think so, I think this is ugly. [00:37:35] So let's take it to incrementally maybe. [00:37:37] I mean, we don't solve the whole thing, [00:37:39] but maybe we come up with some pilot projects [00:37:41] and show what we can do with it now. [00:37:44] I mean, right away you're gonna have to survey [00:37:46] these things to see who's encroached [00:37:48] and who hasn't encroached and did one side encroach [00:37:53] so the other part might encroach. [00:37:55] And so they marched over 20 feet and put their fence in. [00:37:58] Well, actually their property should be out [00:38:00] another three feet and this guy's garage [00:38:02] should be moved back. [00:38:04] I think the ones that we've got recommendations [00:38:08] to vacate, that's the easy stuff. [00:38:11] I mean, we can just do that and tell the homeowners, [00:38:14] here it is, enjoy, it's yours. [00:38:17] Start paying tax, I don't want it. [00:38:19] Too bad, yeah, you're using it. [00:38:22] Yeah, well, some of these you're not using. [00:38:25] Look at them, you know, I mean, they're just overgrown. [00:38:27] I can imagine many people not wanting to have a little. [00:38:30] They put their fence on the property line [00:38:32] and it's on the other side of the fence. [00:38:34] Yeah, Matt. [00:38:35] I think that's the question. [00:38:36] We need to find out what they want. [00:38:37] And so I think until we ask them, [00:38:40] we really don't have a gauge as to [00:38:42] if we're gonna have troubles in certain areas or not. [00:38:43] We may come across streets and everybody's fine. [00:38:46] The only place I can think of where we've, [00:38:48] in recent history, had an example of that [00:38:52] was at the end of Lafayette down by the river. [00:38:56] We had a request from the homeowners [00:39:00] to vacate the railroad right away. [00:39:02] And we, in fact, did that and gave half to each one, [00:39:06] or we were supposed to. [00:39:08] We're in the process. [00:39:09] George is shaking his head. [00:39:10] It hasn't finished yet. [00:39:11] But they seemed to be happy as clams [00:39:14] that we were willing to do that, so. [00:39:18] Yeah, I'm gonna try to keep my city council hat on, [00:39:21] but all I'm saying is weighing the same [00:39:24] of somebody who has encroached and taken space [00:39:26] and not followed the law [00:39:28] or built something too close to the line [00:39:30] that doesn't meet our codes, [00:39:32] and weighing their opinion equally [00:39:33] with somebody who's not done anything wrong, [00:39:36] who would like to have something fair, [00:39:40] I think there's a point where the city says, [00:39:41] these are our alleys, [00:39:43] and this is how we want our city to function, [00:39:45] and this is what we're gonna do. [00:39:47] We eliminate the fights if we find a way [00:39:50] to slowly implement a plan to repair our alleys [00:39:53] versus fixing it all at once. [00:39:55] But having the staff time involved [00:39:59] and petitions, and we've been through that. [00:40:03] It's not fun. [00:40:04] I'm not sure that the assessment process [00:40:07] is the right way to go. [00:40:09] The general fund can't afford to do it. [00:40:11] We don't wanna use our transportation [00:40:12] or gas tax dollars particularly to do it, [00:40:15] but it certainly seems to meet the criteria [00:40:17] of using redevelopment funds to fund some projects. [00:40:21] That's the walkability, the bikeability, [00:40:26] and that's what we're gonna do. [00:40:26] I have a question for you. [00:40:27] How would you all feel about proceeding [00:40:28] with the recommended vacations that we've presented? [00:40:31] Because I agree with the mayor. [00:40:33] That's the easy portion. [00:40:34] We didn't pick any alleys that somebody had taken [00:40:39] and put landscape in, [00:40:40] or maybe their fences is wrong. [00:40:42] What we ended up doing was we took the ones [00:40:45] that we thought, okay, you've got a car park, [00:40:48] a part of a structure of a building [00:40:51] that is in the alleyway. [00:40:54] I don't know if that would be a policy decision [00:40:58] on whether you wanna notify that owner [00:41:00] that he needs to take half of his building off [00:41:02] and jack off a bar. [00:41:03] My opinion, if you wanna vacate it, [00:41:05] he's got no choice but to start paying taxes on it. [00:41:07] Exactly, and so those are the ones we picked. [00:41:10] And for other folks that, I'll give you an example, [00:41:13] like the one alley that we have the lift station [00:41:16] and you can't use it, [00:41:18] but now the people are looking at that alley [00:41:20] in the back of their yards. [00:41:22] Well, even if we were to take care of it, [00:41:24] we're not gonna take care of it and mow the grass [00:41:27] like they would and plant landscaping. [00:41:30] So for all sense of purposes, [00:41:32] they have this alley in the back of their yard [00:41:35] that doesn't hold up to the same standards [00:41:39] as what they do in their yards. [00:41:41] Flashback at a couple of those [00:41:43] and I'll tell you where to stop. [00:41:46] Right there, that's a good one. [00:41:48] Next one, next one. [00:41:50] Next? [00:41:51] No, the other way. [00:41:53] Why would that guy on the right, [00:41:56] the picture on the right, [00:41:57] he's got his fence on his property line, [00:41:58] why would he even think and even care [00:42:01] about taking care of the rest of his 10 feet [00:42:04] or care to take care of it, wanna pay taxes on it? [00:42:09] He would say, forget it, I don't want it. [00:42:13] We're not asking him to vacate, [00:42:15] we're not vacating that portion, [00:42:16] we're vacating from the tree, that large tree, [00:42:19] because that road, that alley's a dead end. [00:42:23] So if you were, if you were not vacating [00:42:25] from picture frame to that tree. [00:42:29] We're not asking to vacate, [00:42:30] like this is one of the weird alleys [00:42:32] that for whatever reason, [00:42:34] it only has one egress point, it doesn't have two. [00:42:38] I'm saying from the, this is the picture on the right. [00:42:41] Yes. [00:42:42] You know, and you're from the lens of the camera [00:42:44] to that tree down there, we're vacating that. [00:42:47] No, we're vacating from that tree [00:42:50] to the next lot where the alley ends, [00:42:53] because there is no alley. [00:42:54] Okay, so okay, well that's why I'm saying, [00:42:57] you're, you know, that's why I say there's a guy. [00:42:59] That's just a portion, that's the isolated one [00:43:02] out of all of them. [00:43:03] I'm saying the guy on the right, [00:43:04] the guy that has the fence and stuff, [00:43:05] I don't want the property, I don't care about the property, [00:43:07] don't give me it, I don't wanna pay for it, [00:43:09] and I've got my fence, I'm not moving my fence. [00:43:11] But he might like to take his trash out [00:43:14] to be picked up by the city, [00:43:16] I think there's a trash pile there somewhere [00:43:18] that's been used by them in the back, [00:43:19] and he might like to take his boat out of the backyard [00:43:22] and put a gate on there and come out a functional alley. [00:43:25] So, I mean, there is potential value [00:43:28] to those property owners to have an alley. [00:43:31] And, you know, so your recommendation, you know. [00:43:35] But at least, you know. [00:43:36] I like your idea, first of all, it's block by block. [00:43:39] But I really think you need to talk to the silent majority. [00:43:42] Silent majority isn't here. [00:43:44] Silent majority doesn't come and talk to you. [00:43:47] We do have a few people that are here. [00:43:49] John Cain is chomping at the bit to say something. [00:43:52] So, John. [00:43:55] Appreciate it. [00:43:57] Okay, so a couple of things that I kind of see with this. [00:44:00] The first thing that I noticed what happens [00:44:04] when we pave things in town. [00:44:07] I used to think it was a great idea. [00:44:09] I no longer think that because I live right off of Madison. [00:44:12] And it's really interesting trying to cross Madison [00:44:16] almost any time of day anymore. [00:44:18] People like it smooth, they like to speed. [00:44:21] That's the first thing I see. [00:44:22] The second thing I, you know, in coming up with these ideas [00:44:25] and what I'm hoping is that at some point [00:44:28] the environmental committees, I think, [00:44:31] should start evolving. [00:44:33] Because what I noticed, and I'm just on it, [00:44:35] but you do a lot of great things. [00:44:37] The gardens are great, the butterfly gardens are great. [00:44:39] But this is the meat. [00:44:41] This is the meat off the plate that I'm interested in. [00:44:43] So, we're looking at old oak trees. [00:44:46] We're looking at possible removal of trees. [00:44:48] I want more interaction. [00:44:49] And the big thing we're looking at [00:44:51] is changing the permeability of ground. [00:44:55] Now, that's supposed to be a big thing here in Florida. [00:44:57] That's huge. [00:44:58] We had, in fact, we. [00:45:00] We're kind of going through this thing with an ordinance. [00:45:02] I'm not going to mention it, right George? [00:45:04] But we got a 60-40 thing going on with permeabilities [00:45:07] where the city says, you know, you passed, [00:45:10] you went over this percent and you got the mulch here [00:45:12] and is that permeable? [00:45:14] So now we're talking about paving. [00:45:16] It's a bit of an issue. [00:45:17] So I don't know, is that going to cause more runoff [00:45:21] on some of these alleys that are at angles, nice and smooth? [00:45:24] I look at that as a problem. [00:45:25] The other thing I look at as a problem [00:45:28] is the heavy equipment that's going to be used in the alleys [00:45:32] because I'm one of these guys that has a fence [00:45:36] and I have the privacy of my little oasis, [00:45:39] but yet on the other side of the fence, [00:45:41] I put all my yard debris [00:45:43] and that's where the city comes and picks up [00:45:45] and they got heavy equipment. [00:45:48] And if we pave it, we're going to be repaving it. [00:45:51] So maybe this has some potential in some areas [00:45:56] where some of the alleys end. [00:45:59] Maybe it has some potential, [00:46:01] but I really don't want to see these things paved [00:46:04] to make it even more convenient [00:46:06] to speed in between the two streets. [00:46:09] I really don't. [00:46:10] And I really think that I would like to see [00:46:13] if this is going to be a consideration, [00:46:15] environmental committee be brought into it [00:46:17] and have a little more of a study. [00:46:19] And the main thing is the water even more than the trees. [00:46:22] Thank you. [00:46:23] John, anybody else? [00:46:26] Come on down. [00:46:27] Marilyn. [00:46:29] Marilyn Deschant. [00:46:36] Yes, Marilyn Deschant, 6119 Illinois Avenue. [00:46:39] This is absolutely fascinating. [00:46:41] I thought it would be kind of cut and dried, so to speak, [00:46:44] but first thing I learned, [00:46:45] you'd think I'd know this [00:46:46] after having served on city council, [00:46:48] but so the property behind the house, [00:46:52] because I'm a person on an alley, my husband and I, [00:46:56] it's not city-owned. [00:46:57] We own it? [00:46:58] No, it is city-owned. [00:47:00] Okay. [00:47:00] 20 feet of it's city-owned. [00:47:02] Okay, so what, [00:47:04] Dell and I also have one of those fences [00:47:07] and we kind of like our alley. [00:47:12] We put out the trash, you know, [00:47:14] the branches and leaves and things. [00:47:17] So I have to agree with some of the other people here [00:47:22] taking into consideration that [00:47:24] if this thing were handled in way of [00:47:26] how it was first put out, [00:47:28] some sort of a survey or whatever, [00:47:31] as soon as people start hearing about the assessment, [00:47:34] they're going to be really upset. [00:47:38] Another thing I'd like to say to take into consideration, [00:47:40] I really like that CRA idea. [00:47:44] I also like the idea of the take it block by block, [00:47:49] but also let's take into consideration too. [00:47:52] I walk around our city a lot [00:47:55] and we have some really beautiful alleys. [00:47:58] We have a revitalizing downtown. [00:48:01] I gotta tell you, [00:48:02] I just don't think pavement and alleys [00:48:04] and revitalizing downtown go together. [00:48:07] In fact, some of our alleys are downright quaint and beautiful [00:48:11] so we have to keep that in consideration. [00:48:13] Although I will say I agree with Robert and the mayor [00:48:18] about making it, just do the easy thing first. [00:48:21] Get that thing out of the way [00:48:22] and then maybe take a fresh look. [00:48:24] All right, thanks so much for the time. [00:48:26] Thank you, Marilyn. [00:48:31] Put that picture up with all of the patchwork. [00:48:36] Frank Starkey, 5939 Grand. [00:48:39] I probably don't have to explain my love of alleys. [00:48:43] We introduced alleys to the first unincorporated part [00:48:46] of Pasco County in history, perhaps. [00:48:50] And so I'm intimately familiar with how alleys function [00:48:54] with the pros and cons, [00:49:00] but the challenges and opportunities of them. [00:49:03] I see them as enormous assets [00:49:06] and I think to abandon an alley [00:49:09] is just generally in the life of the city in the long term. [00:49:15] I mean, cities are a centuries long investment. [00:49:19] I think it's a long term mistake. [00:49:22] So I would, if you're gonna abandon an alley, [00:49:25] it needs to be done with extreme caution and care [00:49:30] and consideration for the really long term. [00:49:33] That said, an alley is an asset [00:49:35] only if you can capitalize on it. [00:49:39] And our standard block south of Missouri [00:49:45] and north of Indiana or so, [00:49:48] the lots are 150 feet deep and 50 feet wide, [00:49:51] which are pretty sizable. [00:49:53] The area between there, they're 100 feet deep [00:49:55] and 50 feet wide or 25 feet wide in some cases [00:49:58] and in the original plat. [00:50:01] And they're generally underdeveloped [00:50:05] and need to be able to be developed more [00:50:08] with accessory dwellings, multiplexes and things like that. [00:50:13] Alleys are a good way to introduce those [00:50:17] without messing up the, [00:50:19] without dramatic changes to the streetscape, [00:50:22] which is what people's most main hot button is. [00:50:25] So there's an enormous opportunity there [00:50:28] that the alleys present [00:50:29] that you don't have the opportunity to do that [00:50:32] in places like Tanglewood Terrace [00:50:33] and the newer post-war parts of the city, [00:50:36] they don't have alleys. [00:50:38] Last point is that when it comes to paving, [00:50:41] if we just think of alleys as, [00:50:43] I'll beg to differ with Mr. Schott, [00:50:47] that if the alleys are only thought of [00:50:50] as nature preserves as they are now, [00:50:55] they'll be underutilized [00:50:57] and they'll just kind of tend to overgrow [00:51:01] and then we'll be talking about abandoning them later [00:51:03] and over time you just lose that asset. [00:51:05] That said, I don't think they need to be blitzed [00:51:08] and pavement can bend around existing trees. [00:51:13] The alley, the full right of way is 20 feet, [00:51:16] you only need about 10 feet of pavement generally [00:51:18] and that can meander and wind as it does in some places, [00:51:21] but they need to be passable [00:51:23] and when they're not paved [00:51:24] or have some sort of stabilization on them, [00:51:26] then they deteriorate [00:51:27] and people don't want to drive on them [00:51:29] because it gets their car dirty. [00:51:31] The less people are using them, [00:51:32] the less they're getting natural surveillance on them, [00:51:36] so then they become, [00:51:38] they just kind of get into a cycle of negative uses. [00:51:42] There's some within a few blocks of your house [00:51:44] that fall in that category [00:51:46] and it's like they've got tank traps in the road. [00:51:50] Yeah, you get high centered [00:51:51] because they run out more and more. [00:51:53] Yeah, so they need to be cleaned up. [00:51:57] But I say, to topper to your point earlier, [00:52:01] we elected you guys to pick the fights [00:52:03] or to do the things that might result [00:52:06] in fights among neighbors [00:52:07] and y'all are all men enough to do that. [00:52:12] I think you can do that and let neighbors be, [00:52:17] and also, I think you made a good point [00:52:19] that if somebody has encroached, they have no rights. [00:52:22] So, don't be too careful about making that decision [00:52:31] and making things easy for the people who have encroached, [00:52:34] especially because there are a lot of people [00:52:36] who have not encroached, probably more who haven't. [00:52:38] So, that's all, thanks. [00:52:40] Thank you. [00:52:41] I really think the public needs [00:52:45] to be addressed individually. [00:52:49] And that's a letter out to them [00:52:51] with an explanation of what's going on [00:52:53] and self-addressed envelope coming back to us [00:52:56] with input, some questions [00:53:00] and some room on the sheet of paper [00:53:05] that says their opinions. [00:53:09] Yeah, we've identified your house [00:53:12] as being one that's got an alley behind it. [00:53:16] We're looking at trying to fix them up [00:53:20] or do something with them. [00:53:22] What do you think? [00:53:24] Yeah, what do you want? [00:53:24] I think that's great. [00:53:25] And I think it gives us feedback [00:53:27] to allow us to make a decision that's best. [00:53:31] Because I, you know, to go along with you, Robert, [00:53:34] you know, the squeaky wheel, you know, [00:53:36] these are the people that we're hearing from, not the... [00:53:42] Along that line, the questionnaire or whatever, [00:53:47] if you do, and I think it's a good idea to send the letters, [00:53:50] I would like to either have posted [00:53:53] or give them access to the report or the identification, [00:53:59] but the map that shows the condition of it, [00:54:02] and even potentially saying your alley [00:54:04] has been identified in our study [00:54:06] as one that is in this category. [00:54:08] What do you think about that? [00:54:10] Because some of them are paved, [00:54:12] but they're all messed up and they might want to say, [00:54:15] pave the doggone thing, it's full of potholes. [00:54:17] And others might say, you know, [00:54:20] I think it would be interesting for us [00:54:22] to tell them what we know about the alley [00:54:24] and get a little information in the letter [00:54:26] versus just a blank, hey, what do you think about alleys? [00:54:29] And use the information we have as a spring point for them [00:54:33] to get them on point with what they might suggest [00:54:36] for their particular condition. [00:54:36] Property owners, not who's renting them. [00:54:39] That's right. [00:54:40] But it's going to be, to do this, [00:54:42] we're going to need to go, again, [00:54:43] almost block by block in customizing the letter. [00:54:46] You are on the alley that is between here and here. [00:54:51] This is, we've had a recommendation made to us [00:54:55] that it ought to be fixed, or it ought to be abandoned, [00:54:57] or it ought to be, what do you want us to do? [00:55:02] Back up Frank's comment [00:55:03] about abandoning some of those properties. [00:55:06] I mean, unless you happen to know the particular spot, [00:55:09] there's only been eight or 10, [00:55:11] whatever number you've got, [00:55:13] that actually have actually looked at, [00:55:14] maybe even six that have looked at these and said, [00:55:17] you know, we identified these and these should go. [00:55:20] I think maybe we should do a little more investigating. [00:55:23] I'd like to look at them before I say, [00:55:25] okay, let's book, you know. [00:55:26] You know, I didn't, you know, [00:55:27] I mean, I saw them in the presentation, [00:55:30] but we'll look before and here. [00:55:34] In response, we're not looking for [00:55:36] that specific of direction. [00:55:38] We just wanted to get some input from you [00:55:41] and have some discussion so that we knew how to go forward [00:55:44] and we would come back to you with a more developed plan. [00:55:49] But we wanted to at least introduce [00:55:51] some of the methodologies that are commonly used [00:55:54] in other places just to see how you responded to them. [00:55:57] So thank you. [00:55:58] I do like Pete's idea about the redevelopment. [00:56:00] What you got from us is what kind of direction. [00:56:02] I'm sure you got great direction from us [00:56:04] because we're really smart people. [00:56:06] Only on alternate Tuesdays. [00:56:12] But I like Pete's idea of at least thinking of this [00:56:17] in terms of community redevelopment. [00:56:20] And it may well be for some of the neighborhoods. [00:56:21] And we have been woefully negligent [00:56:25] in doing stuff specifically for the neighborhoods. [00:56:30] And so this might be, you know, [00:56:31] one of those things we could take a look at. [00:56:35] Although it's not specifically addressed [00:56:37] in the community redevelopment plan, [00:56:39] it is something that we can look at. [00:56:41] And I, you know, that may be one way [00:56:43] to make it more palatable to pick it up. [00:56:45] I do know we've got some folks, [00:56:47] because I've heard from them multiple times. [00:56:50] And as I mentioned, a lot of them live down [00:56:52] within a few blocks of Frank's house, [00:56:56] that they're just really unhappy [00:56:59] because the alleys are there [00:57:02] and they're just not particularly usable, [00:57:05] but they could be if they were fixed up. [00:57:07] And, you know, maybe fixing it up would work. [00:57:10] The idea of the environmental committee, [00:57:12] at least the presentation should be made to them [00:57:14] so they can go out and take a look. [00:57:15] And we definitely need to be cognizant [00:57:17] of the stormwater issues, [00:57:19] because there are going to be stormwater issues [00:57:21] if this stuff goes down this asphalt. [00:57:23] Stormwater issues already, even if we don't do anything. [00:57:26] Yeah, but there'll be more if we do it, so. [00:57:30] Two comments of my final ones. [00:57:33] One is on a specific alley, [00:57:34] and I don't know if it was even identified here, [00:57:36] but I don't know if you got the map up again, [00:57:40] but on Acorn Street, [00:57:43] the street that runs all the way to the river, [00:57:47] and the Main Street Landing development [00:57:49] has come right up to it. [00:57:52] And I was advised by them, [00:57:54] but that alley is being used for drainage [00:57:56] as part of the development plan. [00:57:59] And I don't know legally what we've done with that alley, [00:58:02] but I know with all the parallel flood things [00:58:04] that I've been dealing with, [00:58:08] and with the fact that we've got this density [00:58:11] we're planning to be out there on that side, [00:58:13] that that corridor all the way to the river [00:58:17] would be the perfect corridor to carve that alley out [00:58:20] and to allow for some river access, [00:58:23] whether it's a kayak or canoe or whatever, [00:58:27] some passive access. [00:58:30] I don't know what all of the circumstances are with that [00:58:33] or how the drainage was set up. [00:58:35] I don't know either. [00:58:36] George Romanoli may know, [00:58:38] because I know that he's been looking at it [00:58:40] very recently on the city's behalf. [00:58:43] So all the plans for Main Street Landings [00:58:45] from the beginning was for that part of Acorn Street, [00:58:49] not the whole Acorn Street, [00:58:51] but the part by Main Street Landings, [00:58:52] was going to be vacated by the city for retention. [00:58:57] In fact, they've started the construction of that. [00:58:59] So the plan was before the city officially deeds everything, [00:59:03] that property would be vacated. [00:59:05] So that was part of the plans for- [00:59:06] Outside though, you can't vacate it to just the one. [00:59:09] No, you can vacate to one property owner. [00:59:10] You don't have to vacate it in half and give it to each half. [00:59:13] You can vacate an entire right-of-way [00:59:16] and give it to one owner. [00:59:18] That's news to me. [00:59:19] Well, maybe the right-of-way- [00:59:21] I don't have any experience with that [00:59:23] unless it was acquired by Amnid Domain or some other reason, [00:59:27] but we'll look into that and report back to you. [00:59:29] But that's fine. [00:59:31] But my point is that that alley is valuable. [00:59:35] It has the potential value to be an access point. [00:59:39] So drainage or not drainage, agreement or not, [00:59:43] I think it would be worthwhile to explore the opportunity [00:59:46] if we haven't vacated it yet, [00:59:48] to see that being a usable alley [00:59:50] and to either relocate drainage [00:59:53] or make another accommodation. [00:59:56] To me, that's the worst, you know. [01:00:00] That's the worst outcome for that alley, [01:00:02] when you've got all the people living along there [01:00:04] who would love to put their little kayak or canoe. [01:00:06] 90 units, they have 90 units, [01:00:08] each could have their own blow-up kayak [01:00:10] to throw in the river. [01:00:11] Yeah, I mean, that would be a potential [01:00:13] immediate recreational benefit for the units, [01:00:15] but also for whatever else new [01:00:17] in the density we're trying to create. [01:00:19] So I don't know if it's a reversible thing. [01:00:22] Yeah, I'm not sure, [01:00:23] because it would cause a new engineering for the project. [01:00:26] But I think the property next to it was for sale, [01:00:29] and I know that we could even get money [01:00:30] to put a boat ramp in or whatever we had to, [01:00:34] but it had to be bought. [01:00:35] They want $280,000 for that property. [01:00:37] I know the city has vacated alley right-of-way, [01:00:43] or actually it was street right-of-way, [01:00:44] about eight or nine years ago, [01:00:46] entirely to one side. [01:00:48] So there's precedent for the city to do that. [01:00:50] Whether that's legal or not, [01:00:52] we can ask our city attorney, [01:00:53] but the city has done that in the past. [01:00:56] And there are some street right-of-ways [01:00:59] that do go all the way down to the river, [01:01:00] and that's a discussion for another evening. [01:01:03] But some of those should be public access as well. [01:01:06] I mean, I thought about that on the Lafayette thing, [01:01:08] but it just didn't appear to be any place to park [01:01:11] or any usefulness to it. [01:01:13] Yeah, so that's in process, Councilman. [01:01:16] We're still going through the utilities [01:01:17] for their objections on the Lafayette parcel. [01:01:21] Yeah, okay. [01:01:22] Anything else, guys? [01:01:24] Yeah, I just think we need to do the feedback [01:01:26] from the owners and see what they have to say. [01:01:29] And then if we can save the alleys, let's save them. [01:01:31] But the ones that are so far gone, [01:01:33] I mean, those are the ones I think we really need to assess [01:01:35] and see if, you know, what the people say and move on. [01:01:39] You got direction? [01:01:40] I do, Mr. Mayor. [01:01:41] Thank you very much.

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3. 3Adjournment▶ 1:01:42